Beyond The Messaging Connection, Episode 3: How You See Contacts

beyond the messaging connection

Beyond The Messaging Connection, Part 3: How You See Contacts

Episode Transcription

[00:00:00] Trent Chapman: Welcome to Beyond The Messaging Connection. In this episode we're gonna talk about how to pump and dump your next business.

Ryan Chapman: No, we're not! That's kind of the oxymoron, right? That's the opposite-

Trent Chapman: We're going to teach you how to avoid the pump and dump. I don't know of anybody who is an entrepreneur that I admire who does pump and dump- where they create a business, get a bunch cash out of it, take advantage of people, dump it and go on to the next business. That is not the way you want to run your business or your life.

Ryan Chapman: I can't imagine any seasoned entrepreneur wanting to start a new business over and over again. And yeah, you know, I see a lot of newer entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs who maybe haven't learned some of these lessons, they get to this place where they're not really doing things right. So then eventually the business kind of dries up on them and then they have to find a new thing to do.

Trent Chapman: They might have had success even. I've seen this where they had a flash of success but it wasn't long [00:01:00] lasting. So we're going to talk about why it's usually not long-lasting.

Ryan Chapman: Because really what you want to do at the end of the day is- I believe that a seasoned entrepreneur wants to create a business, have it be wildly profitable, last a long time, be enjoyable for them and for their customers or their team members and just leave a legacy.

And in order to do that, well, today's episode, which is episode number 3, we're going to be talking on how do you see contacts? I say contacts because that includes prospects, leads, customers, maybe referral partners, all that. How you see them really changes everything.

That's why before- and here we are, we're at chapter 3, we still haven't gotten to anything about texting, right? Or messaging. Which is kind of what The Messaging Connection is about because there's these foundational principles and as I looked at the episode layout, Trent, I got a little nervous because I'm like, well people are gonna want us to get right to the point, you know? It's 'tell me about how I can do texting better.' [00:02:00] But if we don't cover these foundational points, you're going to screw it up. And the reason we know that is because after 10 years of working with small businesses and texting we've seen it all.

And, Trent, when I ask you this question- what do you think of the contacts in your database? Like, when you think about them what do you think of them?

Trent Chapman: That's a pretty big question. Yeah, I think a lot of people probably don't know the answer right off the top of their head, but subconsciously there's a way you think about them and that's we're going to dive into and identify do you see them as just money? Do you see them as customers, non-customers? Do you break them into two groups- people who have bought from you and people in your database who were contacted and haven't bought? How do you really see them?

Ryan Chapman: Oh, by the way before we get going too far- if you haven't already gotten The Messaging Connection I want to give you a free copy, the audio copy and the PDF copy. If you want to go buy it on Amazon that's fine. It's The Messaging Connection by Ryan J Chapman. You can look it up. But if you [00:03:00] want to get a free copy, just text the word LEARN to (949)835-5300 and that will be in the show notes so you can be able to do that again.

But, if you haven't already, get that book because in The Messaging Connection I say that you really see people either as a human or as moneybags. I use the term 'moneybags' because it's like you're trying to extract money out of them. So when you think about your list do you think about revenue per click? Do you think about customers and non-customers?? Do you think about the problem that they have and how you can help them solve it?

How you see them is really expressed in these questions, right? And it's going to be expressed in how you advertise- what's your offer? How do you market and how do you sell to them? And if you're doing it wrong, let's say you're looking at them as moneybags, it doesn't mean you're a bad person it just means you probably haven't considered the impact of that. [00:04:00] That's what I would say, Trent.

Trent Chapman: Yeah, and when you see them that way the problem is this- the way you perceive or look at your contacts in your database, maybe customer or not customer, the way you see them it directly affects everything you do. Because either you're trying to extract money from them and just get money or you're trying to bring value and serve them in exchange for money. So there's different, really different, ways of doing business- that I see you as just a source of money versus I see you as someone that I can help and provide a value to and in exchange you'll give me some money.

That creates a different dynamic in the relationship. I'm going to sell to you differently, speak to you differently. I'm going to think about how I sell to you. I'm not going to try and trick you. I'm going to think about 'how can I provide a clear message of the value so that you'll want to do business with me?' Show you how I benefit your life. That's one of the core things that comes from seeing your customers as people versus moneybags.

Ryan Chapman: Well, and here's one of the problems that I see is: marketing automation in and of itself tends to lead [00:05:00] people to seeing contacts as moneybags instead of humans.

Trent Chapman: Versus, like, one to one interaction.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, you're not interacting with them. When you're designing a marketing automation- like if I go take 10 small business owners and teach them about marketing automation- say 'okay, start designing this out'- nine out of ten of them will probably start doing it not thinking at all about the human on the other side of that automation. And so they, you know, this tendency to look at contacts as moneybags instead of humans is expressed in overly complicated marketing automation flows. Because those flows are thinking of the humans not as humans, but as just almost like computers that will give them money, that will follow their instructions and do the things that they say. And if they don't then they'll be beat over the head until they do and ultimately they'll get there.

And so this is the real problem with marketing automation- is it lends towards that because you're not seeing a human as you're designing a [00:06:00] automation flow. You're just thinking 'okay, what do I want this contact to do?' You know, okay, 'so they fill out my form and'- yeah, I'll see it expressed maybe, like, in the language on the landing page, right?

Trent Chapman: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: The call to action in the offer. There's also, like, for noobs to marketing, there is a tendency to focus a lot on themselves. So they're talking about how great they are and how people love them and that kind of stuff versus the problem that the prospect has, the feelings that the prospect's experiencing, the concerns that keep them up at night.

So there will even be mistakes in their marketing as a result of focusing just on extracting the money. So they'll go-

Trent Chapman: I think the other thing is we also, if you're focusing on, again, just extracting money you tend to gravitate towards people teaching you the latest tips and tricks on how to extract the most money out of every contact.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm a business owner. You're a business owner. We're all about making money. That's [00:07:00] the design, the goal, of the business. It's not a charity. But when you go to the point of just focusing on extracting you often lose sight of providing value. So as long as you can do things that increase your sales that also increase the value and provide value- you're not just getting more money by tricking people or, you know, applying the newest tips and tricks you learn- that's okay if you're doing it for the intent of actually providing more value to people. But when you do it just to make sales to get more money, but then you don't provide the value, that's where seeing them as either moneybags or as people and humans that you can serve is really going to change how you actually fulfill on what you're offering in the things that you're selling.

Ryan Chapman: Well, ultimately the person on the other side of the transaction picks up on the way that you see them. Because it will be expressed in how you interact with them long-term. And we've all had people that we've interacted with that have hustled us and it was a disconcerting experience. They may have gotten the money but at the end of the day, we will avoid them like the plague.

[00:08:00] Trent Chapman: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Certainly won't be referring anybody to them. And so that's the other problem of the way you see people is that it starts coloring- If you see them wrong, if you see them just as a source of money for you or for your business, then everywhere you go, you go to masterminds, instead of learning stuff that will help you do better at creating value.

Because see, here the thing is, if you look at them as humans and you really try to address their needs you're way more valuable to the marketplace than if you're just trying to get to the money. So when you go to masterminds instead of learning how to 'oh, how can we get more cash out of people?' you're gonna learn 'how do I create more value?' So your mastermind will be more valuable if you go to-

Trent Chapman: What are some other ways that you can identify someone who sees the customers as moneybags?

Ryan Chapman: Well, they're always starting over. That's, like, the first sign- is they're always starting over because they're never creating deep enough value. so the business doesn't last that long. Eventually, they burn through- see, that's the thing with the churn and burn, you're going-

Trent Chapman: Pump and dump.

Ryan Chapman: The pump and dump- [00:09:00] is you're going through all these people and you're just looking for the ones that are going to give you money now. Right? So I'm only looking for the orders now. I'm not looking for the long-term benefit.

Trent Chapman: Very transactional, like, they're only going to do one transaction.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, it's basically the lack of relationship, right? Lasting relationship. So- and I also see that this becomes a badge of honor for people which is really strange. Like, they're excited that they extract all this money out of people. I'll hear it-

Trent Chapman: Bragging.

Ryan Chapman: If everybody will hear it the same way, but if I'm, like, in a conference or something, I'll hear these people. They're talking about how 'oh, yeah. I got four hundred thousand dollars out of the room.' Mmm, yeah, you see them as moneybags. You don't see them as humans when you're you're bragging about how much money you got out of the room. So the language will express itself. So if you've ever found yourself saying those kinds of things then you may have fallen into this trap. And it's not like it's a permanent trap. Some people fall into it and then they come out of it. [00:10:00] But really-

Trent Chapman: Let's not confuse this. We're all for making $500,000 in sales in a day if you're providing the value that comes with that and you don't just see them as 'I extracted money from them. I don't really care if they get value for me' and going forward. It's really in the fulfillment of what you promised.

Ryan Chapman: That's going to be expressed in how how do you recognize your wins, right? That's going to be expressed there. So if you're in the right attitude of looking at people as humans, you'll express it in a longer timeframe, rather than a shorter timeframe.

Trent Chapman: Here's the other thing that's really curious to see that those who really care about creating a long-term business are not the ones that are trying to avoid human interaction at all costs.

I see a lot of business owners talk about 'how can I do this, where I know there's flow, without talking to anybody? I don't wanna talk, I just wanna have this on autopilot. I wanna to make money without doing anything.' And that is the biggest myth that is out there.

Ryan Chapman: So, super interesting story about this. I've got a daughter, she's wanting to do her own [00:11:00] thing. She doesn't want to work for me. She's in high school still. But, she said 'oh, I saw this idea of for it's like a t-shirt business.' And she's an artist so she could create her own unique t-shirts and stuff. So I see this guy's doing this promotion. He did, like, a Facebook live video with somebody and so then he tells you how to go get started.

And so I go to his Facebook page and then he wants you to use a messenger bot. So, I message into the messenger, Facebook Messenger. I say 'hey, I want to buy. I can't find the link anywhere. Where is it?' And instead of a human responding I get a bot response. And the bot asks me a question, so I said, 'okay, maybe I have to go through the bot to get to a human.' So I go back and forth with the bot and ultimately the bot sends me to some page where it's expired. Like, you can't buy the program. I'm like, 'okay, that's weird.' And then, so I just message back I said, 'hey, look, I have [00:12:00] money. I want to give it to you so I can buy this program. What do I got to do?' And no response then the bot responds, says 'hey, you didn't say anything that I expected. Click one of the buttons that matches you best.' And so I go through the whole process again. Nothing. And I received a few broadcasts from the guy, occasionally, and every time I respond no humans. And so he's lost out on sales because he's so determined to block all human interaction.

And that's the one of my challenges with Facebook Messenger bots or text bots on any media.

Trent Chapman: Ryan, and those medias can be used better because in some of those bots you can roll to a live person but most people see it as 'no, I'm using bots only. I don't want to chat with me one-on-one.'

Ryan Chapman: Yeah. Well from my experience in my work, I think if you're going to do a bot don't let it go more than like three or four steps and then roll to a human. Really the bot should doing- so you click evaluation. Yeah, see is this person to [00:13:00] match for what we're doing and then categorizing them in some way so that when a human starts interacting with them have a better feel for where that person is because of the repetitive stuff. That's fine. But it needs to go to a human. You know, there's some other things I see, too-

Trent Chapman: Why do you think these people do that? A lot of people try to block any human are action.

Ryan Chapman: There's some stories that get told to them like you got to have autonomy. People mistake autonomy, which means freedom to make your own choices, right?

Trent Chapman: You can also hire someone to answer questions.

Ryan Chapman: Well, see that's the problem. They're told you have to have autonomy and no employees.

Trent Chapman: Oh yeah, makes it hard.

Ryan Chapman: Huge margins and as a result the focus is always on the transaction. I'm guessing that the guru's that they learn these lessons from, if they go back to the source guru, whoever that was, the original person that actually knew it versus people repeating what the original guru said. The original guru was not teaching this concept, right?

They were building [00:14:00] autonomy through having a team, right? They were building margins through long-term relationships not just transactions. Because if you're, like you were saying earlier, if you're looking just at transactions you're going to miss the point and you're going to miss out on the long-term relationship.

Well, most people have heard the concept of lifetime value of a customer, right? If you're doing your business right the lifetime value of your customer will continue to go up over time.

Trent Chapman: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Because what you're doing is you're building a relationship, that relationship is extending longer than the business, right?

Trent Chapman: Well as an example of that we created a business together that was a temporary business because it was dictated by the market, right? As in real estate and there's a time when short sales and foreclosures were big deal and our solution was around short sales. And so that was a temporary business.

We knew that going into it. We could have transitioned to a long-term real estate-based training, but we decided instead to focus [00:15:00] more on the tools and software side of things that we found were most helpful for the businesses. And in migrating from education and training to software we had a lot of people follow us that were customers in our other business. And that is because we created a relationship and they trusted us and they want to do, whatever we were doing, they want to follow and keep doing that. So it's when you create business relationships that happens.

Ryan Chapman: It's fascinating, there were a lot of people that were doing something similar to what we were doing at that time and most of them went bankrupt three years before we ended up shutting down that business because they were all transactional. Very few of them were relationship focused. Because what happened is at a point, you know, three years before we closed down the business, nobody else needed training anymore. And the people that were just focused on the transactional training and ended up going out of business because they didn't have a long-term relationship with the customers.

So this is interesting because there's [00:16:00] a series of questions that I wrote down in preparation for this episode that I thought were helpful for somebody thinking about what do you want from your business? Because ultimately if you know what you want from your business I believe it will help you see people properly and seeing people properly is critical to long-term success of a business. So the first question I have about what you want from your business is how long would you like your business to last?

This is a difficult question for many people, Trent, I feel like these days. Because everything is changing so quickly in terms of technology and markets, that kind of thing. A lot of people aren't thinking a hundred, two hundred, three hundred years on their business, which is fascinating. I had dinner once with a couple. He was from Pennsylvania. She was from Taiwan and they had a guy that was kind of like a consultant that was living and working in China and he was there. We were eating, and this is when we were in California, and we're eating [00:17:00] dinner and we're talking about business and the American consultant says it's really fascinating because in China, they think in terms of Millennia when they think about their business. And in the United States, you know, we tend to be, like, thinking about next year, you know what I mean?

We do things that they think are crazy and I'm not saying one is better than the other but I think that as entrepreneurs we could be thinking a little bit longer term than we currently are. So the question is how long do you want your business to last? And if you want a business that lasts a long time that means you're going to have to establish some pretty good relationships with people long term.

Now if you're in a business, that's really a short-term business, Trent and I relate because we were in a short-term business before we started this one.

Trent Chapman: And we knew it had a shelf life when we started it.

Ryan Chapman: Sure. So, like, let's say you're just brand-new to entrepreneurship and you're starting like an Amazon company where you're selling stuff on Amazon. Fantastic! You can make a lot of money doing that but it may [00:18:00] not last a long time. So you want to transition towards that goal, but you first have to decide what's the goal. 'How long would I like my business to last?' And you can transition, by the way. Almost every business can transition as long as you understand how you need to change the company in order for it to last long term.

So that's the first question. Next question is do you want it to be dependent on you to survive? Do you have to be the linchpin in the business? And this is a tough one because if you're the linchpin that means you can't leave ever.

Trent Chapman: Yeah, you can't sell it. You can't just stop working, go off for a year. You can't retire. If you do then it ends the business. So that is a good question to ask. It doesn't mean that you have to change it today. But if your goal is to eventually be not the linchpin of the business then you will work towards that over the next few years.

Ryan Chapman: Now, the way a lot of people get to this place is it's not that they're not needed at all in the business. The business can maybe operate and function fine for six months to a year without their involvement, but it needs them for leadership and [00:19:00] direction. That's an okay place to be in the long term.

Trent Chapman: Still a lot of autonomy there.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, and that's a goal to work towards versus something you're going to do immediately. But you have to have the answer to that question. Do you want the business to be dependent on you to survive? And for many businesses- this is the really scary part about entrepreneurship- is if you can't work for two weeks or a month the business may go under. Because cash flow is that tight, right? And so those are things that can be changed in many businesses. But you just have to be willing for the business to adjust or, like I was saying, transition into what it needs to be in order for that survive.

The next question is do you care about the customer? Because if you don't care about the customer, you're gonna have problems long-term, right? If you just see them as a source of money, chances are they're going to become extremely annoying to at some point.

So you actually have to care about the customer. For us, our customer is the small business owner or [00:20:00] the entrepreneur. You know, someone whose got a business with less than a hundred employees more likely than not, probably doing under 20, 25 million. Those are the people that we focus on.

Trent Chapman: I'd say the majority of them fall in the category of half million to a million in revenue with three to ten employees. So that's really where they're still at the early phase to middle phase of growth. And, you know, we have to care about their problems and what they're going through, what are their goals? Because when we understand that and care about that then we see them differently. So you have to think about your business. Do you care about your customers and their problems and their dreams and their goals?

Ryan Chapman: And its really important that you do, otherwise you will become annoyed with them at some point. And then your life becomes miserable. And so that's why it's really critical that you care about them and, like Trent was saying, you care about their problem or their dream. What is it that they're trying to accomplish that you're going to help them accomplish? And it even if it's [00:21:00] just not be hungry that's a worthy thing because people die if they don't eat right? So there's no small problem as long as the problem is important to the customer. So whatever that is, you gotta care about them, you gotta care about their problem, their dream and how you're going to help them.

Then the next question is do you want to be the cheapest option or the highest value option? I know which one I would rather be and it's not the cheapest option because the cheapest option is just miserable. See I want to be excited to do the work I do for my customers.

Trent Chapman: If you don't have enough revenue from providing that value, that service, then oftentimes you don't feel the same passion or drive. You have to make a profit. So you want them to say I'm going to provide the best value, maybe not the lowest price.

Ryan Chapman: Well, and that doesn't mean you're the most expensive either. But highest value is what I would want to shoot for. Here I am- I'm asking you the questions but I'm also leading you on every question. [00:22:00] The reason why is because then you can keep the focus on the people. You can keep the focus on the human. You can see the person as a human instead of a moneybag. If you're, like, thin margins, you got to make a bunch of sales in order to survive go to Walmart. Go see how everybody is there. You know, do they all look excited to be there? And then, you know, find something that you think is a good value, a high value option, and go there and see if everybody's pleasant to be there. You want to be in the high-value business. So think about that for your business.

And then do you want referrals? Do you want people to be like excited to send you their friends? That doesn't come if you're looking at everybody as a moneybag.

Trent Chapman: The only people I refer are the people that I say 'this person has really added value to my life or to my business.' So those are the people I want to share with my friends and family. If you think about that, you're the same way.

Ryan Chapman: For [00:23:00] me there's another criteria, too. Like, are they really enjoying the business they're doing? Because if they're miserable, even if they added value I'm like, 'oh, I don't want to-'

Trent Chapman: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: And so then that could be that they're not- they don't love the customer. They don't love the problem that they're solving, you know what I mean? So, even if they're really good at it, have they found a way to love it? And you may not love stuff at first. You got to figure out how to do that. But I think you got to get there, right?

So I'm not saying 'okay, you love something, now move and find a business over there.' You got to find something that actually creates value for people. That's more important than how much your passion and love is. But then find a way to love it.

Trent Chapman: Maybe love is a strong word. Maybe that you can enjoy it.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, sure, but care about. Care about the problem, care about the customer. Maybe it's not your hobby.

But I found that people that are the most successful are those that would probably do whatever they're doing as their hobby. I know I would do this. Trent, wouldn't you work on small businesses? Like, as a hobby?

[00:24:00] Trent Chapman: Yeah, I enjoy really seeing the results. Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: We're super annoying at parties because all we do is talk to the people who want to start a business. But no sports scores at least not for me.

Trent Chapman: I don't even know who plays on what team anymore.

Ryan Chapman: Not to say we don't enjoy a game but that's not what consumes us. You'll find that's common amongst people who are the most successful. You want to enjoy your work. I think that's important that you enjoy your work. Then again it doesn't mean that it's your favorite thing, you'd always do it, whatever. But, do you enjoy it? Do you find some sort of fulfillment doing it? I think those, if you have those things right, it's a lot easier to see people as humans instead of moneybags.

Yeah, I think when we think about our business, Ryan, one of the things that we were intentional about, we decided who do we want to actually serve and work with? So going on from those questions Ryan had about what do you want from your business? You also want to identify, who do you want to work with? So what is the category or [00:25:00] group of people that you see as your customer, who you'd enjoy serving?

Trent Chapman: And nothing against real estate agents. I was real estate agent, real estate broker, for 10 years. I just didn't enjoy working in that field because there was a lot of attitudes that we weren't able to adjust and- obviously, there's a percentage of every field that are great. So we tended to attract and serve those who had the same attitude as us, but there was also some attitudes in that field which we didn't enjoy.

So instead of transitioning that last business we decided let's start over with a different customer base. We focused on General small business owners who were using automation and help them make more personalized connections with automation versus being behind this wall and hiding behind automation. We wanted to connect human connection using automation as a tool to leverage that. So that's why we chose-

Ryan Chapman: What's interesting, Trent, is what we ended up doing is we ended up, through that choice, filtering out all the real estate agents we didn't want to work with. Because we have real estate agents that use our software today and who we end up [00:26:00] working with but they're the right kind.

Trent Chapman: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: So that's an important part. You got to figure out who are your people? Because that way you're going to enjoy working with them and you won't mind the human-to-human interaction. Now today, if we talked about today, Trent and I don't have that much human-to-human interaction with our customer the same way that our team does.

Our team spends a bulk of that human-to-human interaction time. And so what's really critical there is still, even though we're not doing that interaction, we need to be thinking always about them- our customers- as humans, our prospects as humans and not as just a source of revenue for-

Trent Chapman: Well and the way this translates is by how we interact with and pass on our beliefs and our culture to our team. So our team says and does the things that we would say and do. So this comes at the next level. If you're not in a place right now where you have employees or you have a team that's okay. When you get there, you have to make sure that your team treats your customer exactly how you were treating them as you were the interface, one-to-one with [00:27:00] customers. As you pass on that responsibility of customer support, billing, sales, whatever it is that you're passing on, that human-to-human interaction continues and the person they're interacting with is representation of your business and of you, an extension of you.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, and so that transition from you having to be the human-to-human interaction point to your team being the human-to-human interaction point requires a lot more training and involvement with your team than you may think. But the beautiful part about that is it frees up your time to be able to focus on things you need to for longer-term vision of the company.

And so what's really critical is that you treat the humans that you work with, which is your team members, the same way that you want them to treat the customers that they're interfacing with.

Trent Chapman: Be fair and honest with them. You gotta treat them with respect. You can't barrage them and yell at them and, you know, that was the thing-

Ryan Chapman: But at the same time you're not a pushover either, right?

Trent Chapman: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: You are a firm but loving parents so to speak and that's the way that you got to be [00:28:00] interacting with everybody. Which is you know what your standards are, what you allow, and what you don't allow in relationships and you develop healthy relationships.

Trent Chapman: And it comes back to though how do you use the your customer, your contacts? Because if you see them correctly, then that foundation of how you view them- like in our business, just to give an example, if we make a mistake we're never going to try and hide that and make the customer feel like they're the ones that made the mistake. And our team knows this. Our team has made some really costly mistakes- some cost us thousands of dollars. But they're not let go, we don't fire them because they made a mistake, because we're all human, we make mistakes. But we respect when they fess up some mistake, share it with the team so we can fix it, and we make sure the customer knows 'hey, we're going to do this to replace this cost and fix the mistake we made.'

And so we're going to go above and beyond to be honest and fair with our employees and with our customers. And because we see our customers as humans that we're serving and bringing value to their lives and businesses this creates a very [00:29:00] strong relationship with them to where we're not going to have customers leaving us, bad-mouthing us talking bad about us. If their business fails or they leave us, they don't use our service anymore, it's not because we offended them or we did something to make them feel like we didn't care. It's because it wasn't either good fit for them or their business wasn't a good fit for what they were doing.

But the bottom line here is the way we see our customer and our prospects is passed on to how we treat them and how we treat our team and so our team passes that on as well.

Ryan Chapman: Okay, so if you see the person as a human and you really understand their problems- so what is it that's driving them to seek your service your product, whatever- then what you're going to want to do is in your marketing automation, so this is rubber hits the road kind of application of this concept, we're going to want the marketing automation to do the mundane and the minor parts but we want to have them then enhance the human-to-human interaction points.

So for example: somebody [00:30:00] raises their hand to say 'hey, I'm interested in your product or service. I want that piece of information that you're promising that will help me make a better decision.' Let's say it's a video. So we would let the marketing automation deliver the video and then we'd let the marketing automation ask an open-ended question. We call these conversation starters. We'll be getting into more of this as we go along. But, I wanted to give you a little taste of an example of what we're talking about in seeing people as human.

So we're going to ask an open-ended question. Now if you paid attention in the last episode Trent made a huge breakthrough in identifying that that's the whole point of email. That's the technology that email brings to the table that everybody misses and so don't get the benefit. But if you did it with email, let's say, you know, it actually was read and opened and viewed, okay, and they saw that open-ended question and they responded to it that's going to now drive to a human-to-human interaction and that's what we want it to do. We want to free up any humans that work in the business to focus on the human-to-human interaction because that's where all the money [00:31:00] is.

Trent Chapman: That's where the relationship is created.

Ryan Chapman: Right. So the relationship is money. So once you get that currency, we recognize that human-to-human interaction and relationship is where all the money is in the business, that's going to help you instead of looking at them as moneybags. And seeing 'oh I need to focus on the human-to-human interaction because when I do the business profits.' When I focus on addressing people's needs, hearing them, understanding them, what they're looking for and then communicating clearly to them how we can meet those needs, that's where all the money comes into the business. So the money comes in the business by doing the right thing.

So viewing your customers and prospects correctly is that foundation. Trent, I think this is why mobile is such a big deal is because it's inherently intimate.

Trent Chapman: Yeah, and that's something that I think- if you don't know, if you haven't read The Messaging Connection, you don't know some of our businesses, we do help businesses use text messaging to create more conversations or to increase conversion [00:32:00] of the leads that come into the business or the relationships they're building with their customers.

So when we say mobile, we're mostly referring to messaging and messaging through text message. And the reason why I realize that this is very intimate is because I don't really like to have people text me, unless it's something that I'm really interested in or someone who I like and trust. And so when people give us the opportunity to request information and provide information for them and they say 'yes, you can text it to me' that's something that I hold to be very valuable. It's a very what's the word I'm looking for?

Ryan Chapman: It's almost sacred, right?

Trent Chapman: Sacred in trusting us that 'hey, I'm going to let you into my intimate circle here, my inner circle.' Because email has been used so much to where people don't care about giving up an email address and they also have fake email addresses that you use. So that's... They've already got a way for that. But with text messaging, if they're saying 'here's my phone number and I want you to text me this information on this video link or this, you know, access this information' they're usually saying 'I trust you enough from what I've seen so far that I'm going to let you into my inner [00:33:00] circle.' And so it's a very intimate form of communication and because of that it also is does very well in creating conversations because I'm not likely to pick up the phone if you call me and I don't know your number. But if we had some text interaction and they said 'hey, I'm going to call you shortly to talk about these things we're chatting about' I'm going to answer the phone because I know who you are, what it's about and I've already let you in.

So texting is a really good way for us to kind of take a step into their world without just cold calling where they're not going to answer. And then start a conversation that leads to a phone call or if it's not needed, maybe it just do that text conversation. You answer a question for them and then they buy your product or service because-

Ryan Chapman: -that's really... Go ahead.

Trent Chapman: I was just going to say that because that's where most people, they have simply just one or two things they want to know or clarify before they make a buying decision. If you have a really good marketing strategy and really good presentation on your product or service, a lot of times people just have one or two simple questions. Like your example of 'hey, where's your order form to buy?' That's all they want to know if they [00:34:00] would have answered and provided it, they would have a sale.

And so that's, to a lot of people it's a very simple thing and it doesn't even have to require a phone conversation as much as just a response by text.

Ryan Chapman: So you said something really interesting- all of that was interesting, but one thing that caught my mind was, or caught my eye, was this idea of it's so intimate that if somebody gives you their number and permission to text them. That almost implies that there is a trust threshold that you have to overcome in order for this media to actually be useful.

And that threshold is much lower for email and so in some ways you could deduce that okay, if I had one marketing campaign that was just asking people for their email and another marketing campaign that was asking for the ability to text interact with them, that the text interact one would inherently have fewer leads generated than the email only.

Trent Chapman: And that's what we've seen, to a certain degree in some cases, depending on your call to action and what you're [00:35:00] providing of value-

Ryan Chapman: And some people interpret that as bad though, right?

Trent Chapman: What's the flip side of that, Ryan?

Ryan Chapman: Well, the fascinating part is every lead consumes some sort of energy, right? So what happens is when you have the threshold really low you increase the noise. And noise is like you think that you have a number of people that are interested but you really don't.

Trent Chapman: Let's say I got 500 leads online this week with email address only. I think there are 500 people interested.

Ryan Chapman: Yes, but what it could be is I've got a large gradient in there, in that actually of the people who might actually take action I've got 50. And it's not going to be this big of a difference but let's say I'm doing the texting side and I get 50. I have less noise in there. I actually have a better hold, or pulse, on who is actually interested in my call to action.

Trent Chapman: And we've actually done- like with one of our businesses, generated over a hundred twenty thousand leads online. And by asking for phone versus just [00:36:00] email you're going to see that it's not that big of a drop off. It's not going to go from 500 to 50. It might from 500 to like 400.or 350.

But there's two things that happen there. You know that you're weeding out the low quality leads, first. And second our consumption of the the text messages, the viewing and reading those, is much higher than the viewing and reading of emails. So even with lower number of leads, the value per lead is really, really the thing we're looking at here. And the conversion, the cost per conversion, how many leads are generated? What does it cost me to get a conversion? Those are the numbers that are more important than 'well, I got 500. This guy only got 350.' Well, that guy got 350 with name, phone number, email. You got 500 with just an email address. And so there's- we want to open your mind to this as we talk about this in future episodes.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, our next episode is going to go into that in more depth. So you're kinda giving them a teaser. But that leads me to a question I think is a real rubber hits the road question, which is how do you build relationships that can last beyond industry disruptions? I could have just said, how do you build [00:37:00] relationships? But I added that qualifier, that 'last beyond industry disruptions' because every industry has disruptions that occur, right?

And sometimes those are governmental- like, let's look at the mortgage broker where suddenly they had a new license they had to get in order for them to-

Trent Chapman:Conditional mortgages.

Ryan Chapman:That's a pretty big disruptor. Sometimes it's a regulation.

Trent Chapman: Technology.

Ryan Chapman: Technology is a disruptor. There could be a new player that comes onto the scene that maybe offers a super low, or changes the pricing model of your industry. There's a lot of things that happen, but how can you build relationships that can last beyond those industry disruptions? How do you build these relationships that will hold on while you get things back in order if that has to happen?

And I identified with Trent three things. And so, Trent, if you want to take one and I'll take one.

Trent Chapman: Yeah, it comes down to is, what we've talked about this whole episode basically, is how do you enhance that human-to-human interaction? That when people have an [00:38:00] experience with our team, with Ryan or I, that's some currency that we're depositing to their attention. So we've talked about that last episode- attention currency.

When I have a human to human interaction with somebody I've gained some trust with them, I provided some value, shared something of value with them, helped them in their business in some way. Or our support team has done something to help them set something up, even outside of what we offer, that human-to-human interaction is trading that relationship.

Ryan Chapman: I think people overestimate the cost of human-to human interaction and underestimate the value.

Trent Chapman: Yeah, for sure.

Ryan Chapman: So- because I'll hear people say 'well, yeah, but if I ask that open-ended question, I could get a bunch of people answering it.'

Trent Chapman: 'I don't want to ask questions!'

Ryan Chapman: You say that like it's a bad thing. Yeah, and so they overestimate the cost. They're like, 'well, this is you take a whole lot of time.' I'll hear this some people that need to have a customer support for their business, right? They're like 'yeah, I'm going to do email [00:39:00] only customer support because if I opened up the phone lines, we would be inundated all the time.' Not really. So people tend to overestimate the cost and underestimate the value. Getting on the phone with somebody usually-

Trent Chapman: Especially today.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, you can resolve a problem. But let's say a customer has a problem, if you force them to go through email It's probably going to take days to get resolved. If you get on the phone with them it can take minutes. And if we get a problem resolved for somebody- number one, there's the time savings. Minutes versus hours. And this is from the perception of the customer because that's the one that impacts your reputation, right? So if you just do that, if you just reduce the time it takes for someone to get a resolution to their problem, even if the resolution isn't what they would want, a human's going to be able to deliver that blow a lot softer than an email. If you get it resolved quickly your reputation in the marketplace is much better than if it drags out. Because as thing drag out people [00:40:00] get less and less patient, right?

So that's the one part. The other part is-

Trent Chapman: They don't like to be jerked around.

Ryan Chapman: If you talk to a person the speed at which information- which is funny because I was sitting at- went and visited my brother, Kyle, down in California. We were there for our dad's memorial- and we were talking with one of my nephews and he's like 10 or 11. And he brought up this point- 'yeah, if you call somebody it's way faster for communication than if you just text them' and I was like that's true. Any text based medium is much slower for the transfer of information than an auditory. And if you get visual in there, it's even faster than that because you're picking up on nonverbal cues. But the rate of information flow if you just get on the phone with somebody or if you're just interacting with them live versus having delays, is way better than not.

So the value is significant and it shows that you care. And as the world pushes more and more towards automation, and it is, [00:41:00] then the value of a human-to-human interaction goes up, especially if that is a quality interaction. So that's number one. Trent, number two-

Trent Chapman: I think I've already covered number two.

Ryan Chapman: Is communicate through channels folks prefer for their convenience.

Trent Chapman: Don't block them from calling. Don't block them from texting. Don't block them from website chat.

Ryan Chapman: Not only don't block them. Let them know those are all available too. Because frequently people have been trained by bad businesses to expect that they can only do crappy things to communicate with companies.

Trent Chapman: It's kind of interesting the number one thing we hear from our customers is like 'wow, you guys are the best support that I've seen for any software ever. Because you guys talk on the phone, you do screen shares, you send videos, you do website chat, you do text message. You let me communicate anyway that I need it, and this is amazing.' And it's not hard! It really isn't hard.

Ryan Chapman: But for software, I think all those media's are appropriate for many businesses. They would prefer if you just let them text. You know what I mean? If you can just let them text. And so [00:42:00] that's so key. And so you want to be thinking about how you make that available to them. But let them- and you know, your industry might be different. Maybe people prefer the phone. But whatever it is, let them know those channels are available and then let them select those and that's fine. Some people might even prefer email. I know there's like we get two or three a month that prefer email over the other medias. Fine.

Trent Chapman: Go ahead and do the last one here, Ryan, and then we'll wrap up.

Ryan Chapman: So the final one is make deposits in an attention currency account. We talked about, like Trent said it on the earlier episode, about this. But you make these minor deposits when you do automated communication, but you make major deposits when you do one-on-one and we kind of covered that already but that's the last part.

If you do that, you will establish relationships. If you enhance human-to-human communication, communicate through channels folks prefer for their convenience and then make deposits in their attention currency account, which means make sure that your interactions are valuable to them from their perspective. And this is possible in every business. I have yet to see a [00:43:00] business, Trent, where these three things couldn't be applied. Except for businesses that don't answer those questions we asked earlier in the episode, you know?

Trent Chapman: All they see is moneybags. May not work.

Ryan Chapman: View people as moneybags or they have- which usually means the business does low margins. It's not great. So just- I think for my closing thought is, Trent- and then if you have closing thoughts you can go with them- my closing thoughts are if you see people for who they are, which is they're fellow travelers on this lonely rock, flying in space, right? Trying to make the most of their lives. Then if they have troubles that your business can address that will make their life easier, more enjoyable and happier then they're going to want to do business with you. And if they know that you actually care about helping them realize their dreams or eliminating their problems, escaping the hells of life, that your product or service addresses, then not only will they want to pay you whatever you require, but they're going to want to tell other people about you and they're going to help grow your business for you.

So seeing [00:44:00] people for who they truly are, which is fellow humans just trying to make it in this world, and then doing whatever you can to help them along in your way that's valuable to them that's all it takes. If you can do that I think you're going to see a dramatic increase in your business just by shifting that. Now even if you weren't doing it consciously, if unconsciously you're seeing people as moneybags and then you said 'oh, wait! What Ryan and Trent have been talking about make a lot of sense' and you make that shift I guarantee you things will start going better.

Trent Chapman: And it may not seem like it's immediate. As to the caution that I threw out there is that it takes time for these principles to take effect, but they are long term things that will benefit you. So, and some things are quick. You will see some quick response to allowing people to communicate better with you, talk to you, talk with your team. Those things can usually produce a quick result.

But the long-term relationships and the benefit of that, that you're not going to see today or tomorrow, but you will see that over time. And we can talk about that and, you know, in all of our different [00:45:00] businesses we've done because we focus on the and providing that value that Ryan talked about. To other people, that we see them as humans. They've got problems, concerns, worries. They've got families just like we do and so when we see them as other people that we want to help and serve then the way we treat them, the way that we interact with them, is much, much better. And that creates a much longer-term business than if we just see them as transactional pieces of paper or money that we're going to take advantage of just to grow our own personal wealth or income.

So that's really the whole focus of this episode is how you see contacts in your database truly affects how you interact with them, how you treat them, how you serve them. And if you see them the right way- it's not going to solve all your problems. We're not going to say that all you need to do see people the right way, now you don't have to do any marketing, sales will take care of themselves. Those are all principles that need to be applied to your business. But this is a core philosophical foundation of if you see people the right way then your actions and your interactions will make your business more valuable [00:46:00] for long-term growth business versus a pump and dump business.

Ryan Chapman: Exactly. Okay. Well, this is only episode 3. We're excited for the rest of them because they're going to get more and more into rubber hits the road. Many things, a lot of these foundational, philosophical ones were at the beginning. If you haven't already, text LEARN to (949)835-5300LEARN to that and we'll give you a copy electronically of the book as well as an audio version.

Trent Chapman: In case you don't know how to spell learn- L, E, A, R, N. Maybe you didn't hear what Ryan was saying, maybe it sounded like a different word. So text the word LEARN to that number and we'll send you a copy of the PDF as well as the audio version of the book.

Ryan Chapman: The Messaging Connection. Till next time this is Ryan.

Trent Chapman: This is Trent. Thanks so much!