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Creating a Successful Offer with Jeb Blann


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Creating a Successful Offer with Jeb Blann

Episode Transcription

[00:00:00] Ryan Chapman: Alright! Hey, this is Ryan Chapman with Fix Your Funnel and I'm excited for today's interview. And I know I've said this over and over again but, you know, I have my good friend Jeb Blann- every time, Jeb, as I introduce the person I'm interviewing I realize we're friends, you know? That's the neat part about this community. But, Jeb is interesting because Jeb's been working with high-end medical, dental, you know. Do you do work with attorneys too?

Jeb Blann: I've done some work with attorneys, yes, but most if it's been-

Ryan Chapman: It's all kind of the same model though, right?

Jeb Blann: It's very similar.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah. It's- and this has kind of come up in the last few interviews, but it's a unique situation where time is your inventory. And so it's really critical that you know how to help people fill that time. Otherwise, they're losing money. They can't ever replace their inventory.

Jeb Blann: Yeah, very true. It's the only commodity that we have really that we just lose a soon as we use it. You can invest money, you can invest [00:01:00] time, but time really- the rewards are- you've lost that time forever, pretty much, once it's gone, so-

Ryan Chapman: Well, let's make this time really valuable.

Jeb Blann: Excellent!

Ryan Chapman: Before we started we were chatting a little bit and I want to get right into this. Although, I would like for you to weave in kind of your history of how you got into marketing automation. You were mentioning before that you were a professional award-winning photographer and you kind of used that so I'll let you bring that up in a second. But, you mentioned something really important before we started recording and I really want to get into that because this is something I see plaguing small businesses all over the world. And that is the inability to create a compelling offer.

Jeb Blann: Yes. What happens is that I think we get all wrapped up into the things that we can do and not necessarily what our target wants.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Jeb Blann: So what happens is that we create these offers and if our target audience is not really hip to it, doesn't really [00:02:00] understand it, we have to spend a lot more money and time and marketing explaining what we're even doing for the target audience.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Jeb Blann: So it's really problematic. It can- I've seen people burn, in dentistry and medical, I've seen them burn thousands and thousands of dollars putting forth offers that really… the target audience didn't really care about. Sometimes it was a matter of education, like they should care about it and didn't. But there's always that gulf between what they're offering and what the people are actually looking for.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah. Well and what I've noticed is people get much more excited about the tools than they do actually creating their offer. And so, in particular, you know-I've noticed in all marketing automation markets but since we're talking a little bit about Infusionsoft here- is they get really excited about the tool, what it can do, and they place more emphasis on that than they do actually thinking about 'well, what is my offer going to be?' You know, 'what's that pathway I'm going to take them down? Is this compelling from their [00:03:00] perspective or is it just something I think should be interesting?'

Jeb Blann: I think we spent so much time learning how to use these tools and I’ve really seen this play out with the doctors and dentists I help. I mean they go to school for a long time. They've got a great deal of financial and time investment into their various certificates and degrees and things. They want to share it. You know, we'll see it on social media where they'll post- do post after post about what it technically takes to do a dental implant. And you know, the reality is their target audience really doesn't care about that. They don't care how the sausage is made.

But, it's our tendency, I think, when you study- I mean, Ryan, you know that we have all sorts of opportunities for education and we belong to- email to, you know, regular email newsletters and things like that. We go to conventions and conferences and have a great time, but we spend a lot of time really trying to perfect our craft. And so I think we tend to, at the back end of it, we want to show that stuff off because we think it's cool.

[00:04:00] Ryan Chapman: Well, it's almost like we're still little children calling to mommy to say 'hey, watch me!'

Jeb Blann: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: In some way, which is interesting. Well, okay. So one of the things I always tell people is that nobody wants to buy what you're selling. And that always throws them off at first because they're like ‘people buy it, though!’ What I say after that, that sometimes helps them see what I'm really trying to communicate, is they want what they believe your thing will give them. And, for me, I think that's kind of the starting point for offer creation is getting to that core- what does the consumer believe that they will get if they do business with your company?

Jeb Blann: Absolutely. And a lot of times it's just this focus on the solution in terms of how they're going to feel and succeed after using your service or after using any product or service. It's not so much- when you go to buy a car a bunch of buying the car is experiential, right? You get into the car, you do a test drive, you do that sort of thing. And [00:05:00] occasionally, you'll have to explain things like, you know, what sort of engine does it have and the rest of it. But it's largely emotional.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Jeb Blann: So it's like if the salesperson then goes right into you know, how much does a car weigh, the exact alloy composition of the body, they're going to lose the sale. All they're interested in really is the car. Is it going to get to the point A to point B in a manner of which that they feel comfortable and they get excited about driving it? It's all they care about. And so we see that in the offer-

Ryan Chapman: So, how do you use that when you're helping your clients create offers?

Jeb Blann: Oh, I'll explain it to you- and one very simple thing is one of my main lines I have it posted in my office is: price is only an issue in the absence of value. The way I use that to explain to people when they're training their offers is look, if the value is not there at the initial slice [00:06:00] you have to build value with either more information or more services and products to the point where the price doesn't matter. And the more you get to that high value proposition the less you have to spend in marketing.

So an example might be this: let's say we had a $30,000 new car- I use car analogies a lot because people, they buy cars, they kind of understand how they work.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah

Jeb Blann: So, a $30,000 car, okay? If there is a dealership that could offer that car for $3,000 brand new, no strings attached, unlimited inventory and all that sort of thing, they have to do a lot less advertising to sell that car than somebody trying to sell for 30 grand. Because 30 grand kind of establishes the value.

So, people understand cars. They don't necessarily understand medical or dental procedures. But what they're looking for is how this is going to improve their life. So the way that I tell my clients about this is I go 'look, you think of it-' let's use dental implants has an example- 'you think of a dental implant as this dental [00:07:00] appliance. You know, they're going to fill the gap in their mouths, but that's good because their bite is going to be better and you know, their mouth isn't going to deteriorate as much and all that sort of information. Whereas you're dealing with a patient that really only understands that they're either uncomfortable with how they look or they're feeling some pain. So that's all they get. They don't understand the rest of it.'

Ryan Chapman: No, and then it's just a matter of like 'well, okay. So how is this process going to go? Is the healing and it take a long time? You know, what if the gap is pretty small? How are you going to get it to fit in there?' You know, that kind of stuff.

Jeb Blann: Yeah, and so we build-

Ryan Chapman: I'm saying all this as I'm feeling with my tongue my tooth that's been pushed back.

Jeb Blann: So what we do is we focus on what's going to happen solution-wise with this appliance or this dental appliance. So people will- if it's a pain point we hit him with more of a medical angle like if [00:08:00] your jaw is hurting, that sort of thing, we offer it more as a solution to cease the pain. If it's a cosmetic point it's more of like speaking to their heart in terms of like are you uncomfortable? Do you tend to cover your mouth when you smile? You know, that sort of thing. We deal with how it works as a solution. The techniques and the services that go underneath it are really more about, you know, that's more about if somebody wants to get nitty-gritty and understand what they're paying for and that sort of thing. But people will pay more for the solution than they will for the process.

Ryan Chapman: How do you go about then creating this offer? Because when I talk about an offer there's a couple different things that we could be talking about. One is like an initial step where no money is changing hands, but there is an exchange of information, right? And another offer is the actual purchase itself. Like you know, how do we position that? But I think for a lot of people where they fail is they frequently are going straight for the purchase, which is a big step for people to take and they don't [00:09:00] have an intermediary way for people to, you know, step towards the purchase.

So, do you mind talking a little bit more about that first step? How do you formulate that off right? Now that I kind of got an idea of like the messaging and the angle that you come from psychologically. How do you decide what to offer in exchange for their contact information?

Jeb Blann: Well, typically the offers, the initial offers, whether they are a webinar or some place, in some cases and in-person seminar, that sort of thing, more of like a free exchange of information. So what happens is that a lot of times we have folks that are looking for a particular service in the medical or dental field. They don't really understand what it is and sometimes they just want to check a box. Like yes, I did research on this and just jump right in. So what we'll do is is their offer will be, it will be basically educational.

Ryan Chapman: Okay!

Jeb Blann: The educational offer is [00:10:00] designed- it builds trust, establishes you as an expert, you know, and people are more inclined to go that next step with somebody they feel like they know.

Ryan Chapman: Okay. So that makes sense then why you were saying so much about the psychological perspective. Because that's helping inform the education that you're actually going to provide in that offer.

Jeb Blann: Absolutely, and-

Ryan Chapman: You're formulating it, all of it, from the consumer's perspective. What are they most concerned about? What are they afraid of? That can thing. That kind of fills in your outline, so to speak, of your educational piece, but it's a webinar or a video-on-demand whatever it may be.

Jeb Blann: Keep in mind that we do all these things in a wrapper. On the first part of the webinar or the in-person seminars that we do. And the last part it's all about feeling. How this will make them feel? Was this is a successful procedure? What sort of differences can it make in their life? And then in the middle we'll add some tech to let them know that yes, we do actually know what we're talking about. We do have a [00:11:00] myriad of solutions. We don't just pigeonhole people into one thing just because. So they're lead through that educational process and-

Ryan Chapman: You kind of inform them 'hey, there's some things that we have to know before we can really recommend something to you. But here's what we're considering and looking for and here's some of the procedures that we might recommend based on what we learn with your specific appointment.' Building up to the set-the-appointment goal.

Jeb Blann: Now the thing that's interesting about this is that at an in-person seminar our booking rate for consult hovers around 80%. Which is pretty good.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Jeb Blann: In the webinar worlds are- like if we do the video, you know, let them watch a video, essentially the same seminar, the people that watch the webinar all the way through we're still looking at about 25 to 30 percent booking rate.

So the idea is that we leave them through this process of education where they [00:12:00] learn about their solutions, about how it will make them feel and look better and then a little bit of tech to kind of prove our expertise. Establish ourselves as the expert. And then wrap it again with the feeling because that's what they're really looking for anyway.

Ryan Chapman: I'm going to put you on the spot here. Hope you don't mind. When you're doing the online webinar video on demand are you using an open-ended question text message, once you know they've viewed at some point of that training or education, to ask kind of their temperature, see where they are, if they have questions?

Jeb Blann: Actually, I'm glad you brought that up. We actually aren't doing that yet. We do think- we do a lot- we do a paced campaign, by pace I mean p-a-c-e-d campaign or after they click fire on the webinar and they go through but it's not really predicated on their rate of completion. [00:13:00] That is something that we're looking to implement, but it's been-.

Ryan Chapman: Just based on my experience, and the experience of some of our other users, I think that would be a huge benefit for those folks that are going through online. Because online is just tough. I mean, I think numbers illustrate that pretty well.

Jeb Blann: And I think it's one of those things where, you know, because we're talking about in the case of dental implants most are running about $3,500 and up. It's not a small ask. Because it's one of those things that will, if you have dental benefits, it will max it out in a hurry. And it's also one of those things where people they usually need more work than just one thing. So, as an example, from the live seminar we know that our average client is going to end up with a $12,000 treatment plan. So that's three or four times the amount of like the initial sort of ask. So that's where we're building our values, though, by offering [00:14:00] education, the consultation. They're pretty invested and so are we in terms of time and information by the time they get to the point of ordering up their treatment plan or procedure.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah. Very fascinating.

Jeb Blann: It's just one of those things that the more they feel like they've been catered to where they are they tend to go into that purchase mode a little bit quicker. That's just a matter of figuring how we word it.

Ryan Chapman: Well, and that's interesting. We kind of went deep into the actual dental example. Let's back up a little bit and get back to the why behind spending time on offer creation. Because, like, we kind of touched on it, but I feel like we can go a little bit deeper on that. And it's really important because too many people will say 'yeah, that's important.' But then they go back to working on a campaign, you know?

Jeb Blann: I think they go at it a little bit backwards. So here's my experience with somebody's offer creation. They through their list of what they can do and what they can provide.

[00:15:00] Ryan Chapman: Mmm, yeah, what's on the truck?

Jeb Blann: What can I do? What can I provide? And they'll just go through and just kind of throw something together as an offer because they can do it and they know it's valuable. They know it has like an intrinsic value where it's like, oh this is worth so much money per month or so much money as a one-time. They understand the value of it. And then they put forth marketing effort after it and there's crickets. So what's happened is that they- is that first of all, they very rarely properly niche down their target. We always do at least a three step for niching down our target and I can give you an example of that in a minute. And going to that tight target and trying to figure out what do they want and then making our services fit what they actually want and meet versus what we think. It takes a little bit of extra work, but-

Ryan Chapman: It's really difficult for some people to do because they get married to what they have done [00:16:00] or feel like they can do. And the reality is just in business you're serving a market.

Jeb Blann: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: So you really have to look at what does the market want? And if you're willing to adjust your business so that it's not what you've always done but what the market actually wants. And, you know, there's some constraints on that as well. I mean you don't want to do everything because you may weigh the cost- you know, emotionally, mentally, physically, all that kind of stuff, financially- of doing exactly what the market wants and say 'well, that's not worth it to me.'

Jeb Blann: Well, I think one of the key components like when I'm talking to a dentist- let me give a little bit of an example: one of the first dentists I worked with as far as somebody that kind of said just you do whatever. A lot of times they have a preconceived notion for what they want.

And for the past seven years I've worked with this dentist. One of the things I discovered in working with him is that he was actually driven to eliminate pain. [00:17:00] So, and it was from a very unique perspective. He had been born with some birth defects in his mouth. So it made his teeth kind of awkward. He had had to have multiple dental surgeries before he turned 18. His children, actually about half of them, have the same problem. So he found that he was driven to help people in that similar scenario. What he was missing was his voice and his offering and things like that, but he had flexibility in that because what he was in love with was not his offer but the people that he was targeting with the offer.

Ryan Chapman: That's really important. I think that that is also lost on some people. I mean if you ask anybody everybody knows the right answer. They say 'no, I care about the customer.'

Jeb Blann: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: But the question is do you really, in your heart of hearts, care about the customer and their outcome? If you don't, and my personal opinion is, you're in the wrong industry, then. You need to find the customer that you really care about.

Jeb Blann: Yeah, [00:18:00] I agree completely. It's something that's really lost on a lot of business people. I think we get to where, you know, we have some financial needs, you know. We have some things going on in our personal life and we kind of forget the step of, you know, we- in order to put forth this amount of effort to acquiring customers and servicing those customers we have to care about them. I mean, it's just- and trust me, Ryan, I fought this for years. I didn't really- I wanted to get all involved in the tech. I wanted to know everything I could know. I wanted to do everything like very much in these organized steps and stages. And only to discover that it wasn't until I finally figured out that I had to first care about my target that then the rest will fall into place.

So, as a quick example, we have a program here that's getting ready to launch. I can't tell you a whole lot about it. But essentially the process goes something like this: where at first I approach a target that I really do [00:19:00] actually care about, it's been niched down three steps like- I'll explain that in a minute- and I'm telling this person 'here is what I'm going to do for you, here's what I'm going to do for you, here's what I'm going to do for you.' And, you know, I'm talking to this lady and she goes 'wait, wait, wait. Stop.' So I stop. And she says 'so, well, what I really need is this.' And I went 'wow. Okay, I could actually do that.' It was actually a simpler solution than what I was proposing for her.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Jeb Blann: And so what happened is that I go 'okay.' And I give her like a couple of feeders like 'hey, I'm thinking about this and thinking about that.' And, Ryan-

Ryan Chapman: Woah, Jeb! It sounds like you're actually having to talk to people!

Jeb Blann: I know!

Ryan Chapman: And maybe even like customers or prospective customers in order to learn some stuff!

Jeb Blann: Ryan, the fun part about this little project is that I have 30 paying customers for a project that doesn't exist yet. The offer is so strong. I mean I know I can perform the offer [00:20:00] because it's a mechanical issue, right? The offer is so strong that they're throwing me credit card numbers for this thing that I have- there's nothing created yet. Like there's-

Ryan Chapman: That, to me, just reinforces how important it is to get your offer right. Because when the offer is right- like, this is the point you've been making the whole time, though- is that everything's easier.

Jeb Blann: Everything.

Ryan Chapman: Everything is easier when the offer is right because you speak to the right person at the right place. Price, it becomes much more negligible when you've got the right message, right?

Jeb Blann: Absolutely, and if it's something that has high value for that target, it's just- they'll figure out a way. Everything's kind of hinged on that offer. Now, if it's-

Ryan Chapman: I just really wish- and the reason I'm stopping you yet again is I really want people listening to get this. This is so important! And because a lot of people go 'oh, yeah that's important.' And then they'll turn off the podcast and will go back to doing what they've done. Actually carve out some time. You [00:21:00] need to rewind and listen again because Jeb has dropped a number of really important nuggets on you in terms of how do you formulate your offer? How he's given examples of cars and dentists and stuff like that, but the principles of how to create a good offer have been laid out here so far.

So, you know, I really want you to make sure you're not just casually listening to this. But like, if you need to, grab your phone, piece of paper and pencil, start writing down some of the answers to these questions or these points that we've been making. And, Jeb, you've got more that you're going to go into because you said you kept on saying the three step drill down.

Jeb Blann: Three steps. So what I do is when you look at targets and niches I- I always call them niches. I'm sorry for those of you that prefer niche-when you look at things like niches a lot of times that niche might be too broad. Okay. Now we all hear about the thing called Blue Ocean Strategy and, you know, all that sort of thing.

And then there's Red Ocean. We all know that Red [00:22:00] Ocean is kind of like a feeding frenzy on particular niches. I mean if you've read the book Blue Ocean Strategy- I encourage you to do it if you haven't already- but what happens is that you might say like 'okay-'

Let me give the dental example. Okay, so somebody says 'what's your vertical?' And they'll say 'hey, I want to deal with dentists.' Okay, that's great. There are a hundred ninety thousand dentists in America. And within dentistry there are a dozen specialties. There are lots of different types of dentist, lots of different types of practices. That's not enough. You can't just go dentist- boom! And consider that you have a tight enough vertical. It just doesn't it just doesn't work.

So another way you can split off dentists is between corporate dentistry. So that's going to be like your Aspen Dental and places like that. Or do you want kind of the independent dentist? So [00:23:00] there's your next delineation. Okay, so start out with dentists.

Ryan Chapman: I'm going to choose independent dentists because I think they'd be easier to get to.

Jeb Blann: Absolutely. And so you go from dentist to now I want independent dentists. Okay, well independent dentists, I mean-

Ryan Chapman: Is that like level 2 or 1?

Jeb Blann: That's level 2.

Ryan Chapman: Okay.

Jeb Blann: Okay, and we're going to go down at least three levels sometimes four, okay? We're trying to get to where we can hit a group where their needs are really similar.

Ryan Chapman: Yes.

Jeb Blann: If you go into dentists and then independent dentists their needs are different than corporate, but they still have a lot of difference.

Ryan Chapman: There's a wide variety of potential pain points that they would respond to.

Jeb Blann: Okay, so, what I do is I go from dentist to corporate dentists- err, dentists to independent dentists, sorry, and then I might go for a specialty from there. Okay, so a specialty would be something like- in this world you have like endodontists, periodontists, you know, [00:24:00] orthodontists, you have like, the list goes on.

Ryan Chapman: Okay.

Jeb Blann: Let's say I'm just going to go to general. So, a general dentist without any sort of -ontist on the end of their name. Okay. Now in this case, that's still really general.

Ryan Chapman: That's pretty big.

Jeb Blann: That's pretty big. Now, if I chosen ednodontist, that's pretty tight.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, at that point they all have very similar situations.

Jeb Blann: Yeah, and so you have to look at it- It's not- I always go minimum of three. That's why I say minimum of three. If you get stuck in something like general dentist you haven't gone far enough, but if you've gone to endodontists then maybe you have gone far enough, you know. You kind of have to go through.

So, a general dentist from there. So that means, from there, I need to go 'okay, so I want a general dentist that specializes in TMJ. TMJD. Temporomandibular Joint Disorder.

Ryan Chapman: Okay. Now they all have the [00:25:00] same kind of problems, same kind of concerns. Their marketing would be very similar.

Jeb Blann: Yeah, the marking would be similar, the services they offer- the training that they take on after dental school, the training is pretty similar. They have a certain set of tools they can use to treat their patient. But a lot of these other dentists won't even bother with. You know, so they're in like this kind of tighter group.

Ryan Chapman: So and something interesting about that, Jeb, is whenever I'm talking to somebody like 'hey, I'm thinking about getting into business' or 'I've just started my business' I always go through like a quick checklist before I would say 'hey, that's a good idea' or 'you should think again.' And it's who are you going to target, right? How easy is it to get in front like economical? Like ease and economical is it to get in front of them. Do they have a problem? Do they know they have a problem? Have they demonstrated they're willing to spend money to solve the problem? If I don't get a positive response on those five questions I don't move forward [00:26:00] because I just made it too hard for me. And really a lot of those questions are nailed down by what you're doing here with drilling down. Saying who is the actual customer I want to go after because once you get that tight economically getting in front of them goes- but that's much more viable, right?

Jeb Blann: It is because what happens is they tend to hang with the same vendors. They tend to hang with the same conferences and conventions. You know, they have use groups on- well, we used to call use groups but now just they're just groups- on Facebook. You know, they they have niched themselves into these little kind of micro-chasms of people and you can keep the messaging on point and the same as you're drifting from person to person.

Ryan Chapman: So that- and someone in your position that does two things for you- one: is it's easier to talk to your end customer and two: the solution you get for one customer is probably going to be pretty close to the solution you're going to give [00:27:00] another customer.

Jeb Blann: So what we do is we build- everybody... You know how you may have heard the term avatar before? Where you're building your customer avatar? And so like in this case, let's say we have- my primary candidate customer avatar is they are probably about 35 to 45 years old. They are an independent dentist. They treat and focus on TMJD and you know, they do say a million dollars or more a year. Okay, what we do is we actually create an end result avatar. We create a target avatar. That target avatar is where we want all of our clients to get to. So not only do we have in mind about where they're starting but also where we want them to end up.

Ryan Chapman: And that's how far you can take them. That way you can set realistic expectations and all that jazz, too.

Jeb Blann: I know I can take most dental practices up to about 2.6 to 2.8 million dollars. [00:28:00] I know I can take their hourly from $250 an hour up to about $700 an hour. So we create, actually, a results avatar and that is how we focus what we're doing with each client-

Ryan Chapman: I think that's really important. This kind of thinking, you know, thinking about where do we want to find our people and where we want to move them to is really important because that reinforms everything about your marketing and your messaging too.

Jeb Blann: Yes, it does.

Ryan Chapman: You're not going to make promises that you can't keep. For me a big thing is reputation, right? You’ve got to maintain your reputation in the marketplace. And a big part of your reputation is can you do what you say you can do? So if you make promises in your marketing and sales- a lot of people, it's just disgusting. They get so comfortable with just saying whatever because they'll get somebody to do something that they'll make promises that aren't even a realm of what they can do. And when you make those kind of promises now okay, I give you the [00:29:00] money, now make it happen. And when you can't deliver on it- unless you're one of those people who has just got some sort of mental disorder where it doesn't bother you- It's going to eat you up inside. And it's going to make you hate your business and you're not going to enjoy it. You're not going to feel good about it. You can't charge what you should and all that stuff. It's really important in the offer creation not only to know who's that person that you're focusing on so you can really understand their problems and then that informs what you can tell them. But also where can you take them? And if you don't know where you can take them, you know, that may be something you have to develop over time.

Like I can't imagine the first time you worked with a dentist you knew 'oh, I'm going to take him to this 2.6, 2 .8 range.'

Jeb Blann: No, it wasn't right away. I knew that there were things I could do, campaigns I could do- this is back in the paper days. I know I could create paper product that would have certain results but they'd be like one time they'd be the actual [00:30:00] campaign. One time deal. Not necessarily a constant strategy. And it was, it was a result train. I don't think that you can actually talk seriously about goals or results unless you're niched down to the point where people get similar.

Ryan Chapman: Well, then there's too many variables, right?

Jeb Blann: Too many. And so like even, for example, one of the things that's actually- I did actually go down one more bit from the TMJD, people that service the realistic population of a hundred fifty thousand or less.

Ryan Chapman: Okay.

Jeb Blann: So here's why- it's that the needs of marketing in a smaller, rural environment are different than in a larger city.

Ryan Chapman: Yes.

Jeb Blann: And so the larger city you're competing in a different sort of mindset, different sort of level, and it's throwing my math off. I hate it when it throws my math off. So I just went no, I just need to specialize in these people that they're in kind of these smaller areas. Because-

Ryan Chapman: I think that's really important to know your [00:31:00] limits too, as a business owner, because if you don't that's where you get into trouble. And you think 'okay well, I'll just go bigger because smaller was working so well.' So you got to figure out what you can do. You know, I think to go back to that point of when you're creating that results avatar and you don't have a whole lot of results yet that you better be really conservative and just state what you know you can do. Or what you're confident that you can do and then you can update that as you start getting more results. And then also the other point you brought up here that I really want to highlight is when you identify what your confines are, where you really do your best work, stay inside those.

Jeb Blann: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Because when you step out of them- I mean, if you're going to step out it's got to be an experiment. You've got to understand it's an experiment. You can't be saying 'oh, we now do this.' You know, I think it's fine to run experiments every now and again just to test your limits.

Jeb Blann: I agree with that and I think that- as an example I had a [00:32:00] dentist who was really wanting to hire me, who was from one of the boroughs of New York City.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Jeb Blann: And he had heard of the results that I've gotten for some of his friends and things like that. He said 'hey, you know, I need you to work for me,' etc. etc. And I went 'well, I'll tell you I'd have to charge you about triple and I'm actually not sure it would work.'

Ryan Chapman: And if you're okay with that we'll go forward.

Jeb Blann: Then we'll go forward. But what's interesting about that guy is he didn't hire me. I mean, I wouldn't hire me either with that sort of response. But what's funny is he sent me about three clients.

Ryan Chapman: Well, that's the important thing about integrity.

Jeb Blann: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Your reputation in the marketplace was enhanced by your ability to say no.

Jeb Blann: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: I've had people- in fact, if you go to our Facebook page you'll see on one of the reviews from someone that I did a call with. You know, after talking to them I [00:33:00] was like 'what are you doing? You don't need Infusionsoft. You don't need Fix Your Funnel. You don't need anything., What you need to do is get your business in order and when you get your business in order then come on back. But right now you should cancel all this stuff because you're not in a position where you should be touching it.' And he was so appreciative. I didn't ask him to go give me a review. He went on Facebook and gave me a review just because I said that.

And so when you can know your confines and your limits and you can express those and articulate them because you're like 'yeah, that's outside of what I can do. So I'm gonna have to charge you a bunch. I don't know if that's in your best interest.' People think turning people away is bad, but turning people away in that scenario is... It's almost like gold.

Jeb Blann: Well, if you niche down far enough, there's plenty of business.

Ryan Chapman: Oh, yeah.

Jeb Blann: It's one of those things where, you know, I identified based on client work. Because I started noticing that my clients share some traits. And sometimes this [00:34:00] happens kind of by accident. And like, you know, all of my clients are in kind of a little bit of a smaller area, you know? Their total realistic buyer is about a hundred and fifty thousand or less, or usually closer to a hundred thousand actually. And so maybe there's something to that, you know? Maybe it's like that's why it's effective.

I mean, you know, I had a dental client I doubled in about 2 years between everything that I did. And it was in that sort of area. You know, and I've got a friend of mine who works in a similar niche and what he does is he actually goes into demographics. He goes a lot deeper into it because his system is so tight that it does have certain requirements in terms of what he does, but he's learned to niche into that to make sure he doesn't make any mistakes. It never pays to stretch, especially you're trying to systematize.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Jeb Blann: You're trying to get to the point where you're not having to reinvent the wheel every day. It's one of the reasons why we created our [00:35:00] end customer avatar was because we wanted to build our programs that would, in our opinion, build that customer and sometimes people are hitting us in different phases along the way.

Ryan Chapman: Sure.

Jeb Blann: So you still have that same bank of tools that-

Ryan Chapman: But that also helps you to know, like, 'well here's how far we'll probably be able to take you so that you can...' I think setting expectations is really important in business as well. That's what helps your reputation. I've seen a lot of people who have- their businesses are fine. Just their ability to manage expectations is so terrible that they have a bad reputation. And if they simply knew how to manage expectations appropriately, say 'here's what we can do. Here's what we can't do. No, that's how things go. That's not a problem. If that's not something you want, that's okay. But that's actually how we designed it to work.' And people sometimes are afraid to express themselves.

But most issues I've seen in business come out of lack of preparation. So they haven't [00:36:00] prepared their offer. They haven't thought about some things that they really should think about. Or a lack of communication. So they're not saying what they need to say when they need to say it. Or they try and say something that they can't back up.

Jeb Blann: Yeah. I agree with that completely. It drives- in the dental space you can imagine its- people love vertical, you know, having the dental as a vertical. They know that they have some money to spend. A lot of them are rather adventurous. They'll be wanting to try new things and all sorts of stuff. You know, I actually had a client, it's a true story, that went ahead and picked up a second location and decided with the second location we're just going to do another company for a few months and give it a try. So it's one of those things where I just went 'fine, you know, whatever.' That sort of thing never worries me. And you know, I think when you're comfortable in what you're doing, you just kind of go 'okay, you know what? They'll be back.'

I cracked a joke with them that I'd charge them 50% extra when he came back [00:37:00] on board with me as like a joke.

And so what happened is that I started a Facebook campaign, okay? And- Facebook lead ad campaign that we've done in several practices and things like that- and we set up a budget that was fairly small. They usually are because of the areas that we're in. So we set a daily budget of about... I think it was $17.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah. You'd be hard pressed to spend more than that in an area that small.

Jeb Blann: Yeah, and so we did that. And we averaged roughly $9 per lead ad click, okay? Which is a little high to my taste but nonetheless the booking rate was still solid. It was more than 50%. And so we looked at the end of the month. We'd spent about $450. I think he'd made about 20 appointments for dental implants. This other company that he hired he spent $3800 as a monthly retainer [00:38:00] and $3000 in click ad fees.

Ryan Chapman: Oh, jeez.

Jeb Blann: No appointments. So what happens is that these companies have just claimed they can do everything and they haven't really taken the time to look at the area, look at the practice. They kind of do this sort of wide brush. I mean, he's not really in an area that would ever support $100 a day in Facebook advertisement. And it's been a very expensive lesson for him. But it's one of those things that when-

Ryan Chapman: I hope you charge them at least a 125%.

Jeb Blann: Well, let's just say multiple location discount doesn't exist. I don't like to gouge people because, you know-

Ryan Chapman: It's an important lesson for people to learn.

Jeb Blann: It is. They really, you know, it's just one of those things that sometimes it's coming from that position of authority and strength that you can just kind of say that stuff and I think it's kind of true. It's like... You [00:39:00] know, I told him I said 'look, I really hope this-' He's a good guy. He's one of my favorite people and I'm like 'I hope this works!' I mean I'm not gonna sit here and wish for your demise. But then I said 'but when it doesn't, it's going to cost you extra.' You know? And so- and the thing of it was is that... Is that's how it worked out, but when providers just- they start just skewing the stuff that they saw work or they went to a couple webinars and said, 'oh, I'm an expert now on Instagram' or whatever it is.

Ryan Chapman: Do you know whats really sad for me, Jeb, is maybe it's just because of time, you know? Having been around and heard so many pitches and stuff. In five- five minutes is generous- but within five minutes, you know, I can tell if somebody knows what they're doing or if they don't.

Jeb Blann: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: It's sad when I see... You know, naive in that area, right? Business owners get taken by people because they don't know the questions to ask, you know? [00:40:00] And that's why listening to this interview and the other interviews that I've done on this podcast are so important. It's because it kind of introduces you to some of these concepts that help you get out of being naive and into aware or woke, you know, so to speak. Those things that you've got to be paying attention to.

Jeb Blann: You know, it's funny the- so, part of what I do with coaching clients- I do some of that too- that aren't dentists or providers and people like us, I guess.. Is the first thing I ask them- and it goes back to the offer thing. I know by what they're telling me with their offer if they've really looked into this or not. Have they really done the research and done the work? So I'll ask them. What's your primary offer?

And a lot of times, in fact almost all the time, the answer I get is 'well, you know, I provide Infusionsoft services with the Fix Your Funnel kicker' or something like that. It's like 'okay, great. So you're trying to sell your offer to a bunch of people that know what Infusionsoft and Fix Your Funnel are? [00:41:00] So your market are other ICP's, right?’ Then they go 'well, no. I'm looking for, you know, I deal with contractors.' I'm like, 'okay, but your offer... What does a contractor know about Infusionsoft or Fix Your Funnel?' Nothing! In fact, you could explain that whole thing to them and they'd be lost, gone, confused, for a couple days and move on to somebody else that didn't try to turn them into a technician.

Ryan Chapman: Or better yet do nothing at all. It's probably what- it's most likely what would occur.

Jeb Blann: And that's true. And so I can tell a lot about where somebody's business position is on their offer. You know?

Ryan Chapman: Well and that's interesting. Because, you know, one of the questions I like to ask- because I do this monthly class here in Tucson just to teach marketing and I like to keep sharp and like, you know, I love marketing so it's not like... I make no money off of it whatsoever. But I just love doing it and it helps me to see where business owners are. Because sometimes I'm a little detached with- because I've built a team and I'm more of a business owner than, you [00:42:00] know, a self-employed person.,

And so I asked them 'who's your market? Like, who do you sell to?' And inevitably the most common answer is 'well, everyone. Anybody who wants to buy what I'm selling.' And I'm like 'okay, we haven't thought at all about this question yet. We got some work to do.' And then that, you know, will kind of inform what goes on next.

Jeb Blann: It gets exhausting. Running your business that way you will run out of time a lot sooner than you're making enough money.

Ryan Chapman: Well, you have no framework. So you're basically stabbing in the dark.

Jeb Blann: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: And that's why it's so important to have framework, you know? In my book, How to Fix Your Funnel, what I was trying to give- which is interesting because it doesn't have anything to do with texting so that's why I had to write The Messaging Connection.

Jeb Blann: Yeah!

Ryan Chapman: And in How to Fix Your Funnel one thing that I just saw over and over again and so I'm like 'okay, the community needs this even if this isn't exactly what's going to sell what I have.' Because if people don't have a framework for identifying what should I be [00:43:00] working on in my business? Then they're just stabbing in the dark. The problem with stabbing in the dark is if you keep stabbing the dark eventually you run out of money. Because you put your money, your time, your effort, into things that don't produce any results. And I can go find you 30 people that will sell you campaigns and sell you the must-have stuff for your business and all this jazz, but there's no evaluation whatsoever about your business going on. So how in the world can they know what your business needs to grow when there's been zero analysis of your business?

Jeb Blann: You have to be willing to do the work. You can't just spray and pray. It's really a... Without doing the work ahead of time, without really figuring out- that's why you have to find a niche that you really care about. Because you're going to be putting in effort and time talking to people, evaluating [00:44:00] their needs. I mean, it's kind of a... I guess I get a little bit irritated because some of these viewers are like- you know, kind of do what we started at the top of the podcast where we talked about, you know, like they just basically throw all their skills up, throw everything they can provide up on a wall and they- like in post-it notes. Like hey, let's build a compelling offer. Guess what? You have no idea if your target needs that offer or not. No clue. And the process to get to that point where you actually can hone in your offer, if you do it that way, is so expensive and time-consuming. I mean, it's not uncommon for people take months, years, tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars to figure out that their initial offer was crap.

So it's like, you know, that's why you need to do the work first. You can't just say... You can't just do this. I mean, I know people work really hard to develop their skill set, develop their... You know, what they have built and things like that. I mean, they put a lot of work into it. They want to steer people into it and what they don't understand is the [00:45:00] further away that offer is from what their target actually wants right now the more expensive it gets to get them to buy. It's just it's a-

Ryan Chapman: The wider the gap the more it's going to cost you to get to them across there, right?

Jeb Blann: Sorry?

Ryan Chapman: The wider the gap between where the customer is and their perception in your offer the more expensive it's going to be to get them across that gap.

Jeb Blann: Absolutely.

Ryan Chapman: So the tighter you can make that connection for them- that's the thing is when I was younger it always blew me away. What do you mean you can't connect the dots? I gotta connect the dots for them? But you have to connect all the dots. You can't assume anything. That they're going to just 'oh, well, that's self-evident.' You've gotta really connect the dots on what it is that they want and what it is that you have and how that's going to get that there to them. And the better it is to start where they are and build the bridge towards you versus building the bridge on your side towards them which I hope that makes sense. Does that make sense to [00:46:00] you, Jeb?

Jeb Blann: It does and I talk to so many- here's the thing, I've talked to so many ICP's and people that are in this automation space and their knowledge points are incredible.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Jeb Blann: I mean, think about some of the things we can do, Ryan. It's incredible that we can do them. I mean-

Ryan Chapman: Oh, yeah.

Jeb Blann: It's a mystery the mass population of how we can manage it. I mean they're targets of this stuff all day long. They have no idea how it works. And you know what? We kind of do. We do know how that works. We can employ these programs. And-

Ryan Chapman: The stuff that we have talked about in these interviews alone, if the people are paying attention, is the stuff of magic.

Jeb Blann: It really is and I understand the obsession that we get where it's like I can do this super cool thing and it'll... And it will be great. And because you- and then you're talking to a target, to a member of your vertical, and they're like 'huh??'

Ryan Chapman: 'Dude, all I wanted some more [00:47:00] money in the bank account so I can take off a couple days a week.'

Jeb Blann: 'All I want is some more customers or I want some more knowledge to help me get customers or I want you-'

Ryan Chapman: Well and, Jeb, they don't even want that do they?

Jeb Blann: No.

Ryan Chapman: The want what they have associated customers will give them.

Jeb Blann: Yeah, absolutely.

Ryan Chapman: So if your dentist is saying 'yeah, if I can get 20 more patients-' it's because he's already done the math and connected the dots on that to what actually drives his behavior.

Jeb Blann: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: He's thinking then I can finally get that Ferrari. Or, you know, then finally I can take Tuesdays and Thursdays off.

Jeb Blann: Yeah, and a lot of them, in my niche in particular, they want to get down to three days a week at work. That's their thing. And what that means is that we have to ramp up what they make per hour to do it. So just making a phone ring is not enough. So if I just hit him with a thing like 'I'm going to make your phone ring' the smart dentist will be like 'well, who's calling?'

Ryan Chapman: Yeah!

Jeb Blann: Like I don't need a bunch of folks that are just on an insurance and just not really... Don't really have the problems I can [00:48:00] address. I need people that have like, you know, 10, 20, 30, $40,000 problems.

Ryan Chapman: So that's the question you've got to answer before they’ve even asked it. Which means you really have to talk to your target market. You really have to find out- you know, I think some people are afraid to go seek someone out that's in that target market and ask them questions. Go find another one and see if they give you the same answers and find a third one to see if they give you the same answers. If you start getting the same answers then, you know, you're on to it.

Jeb Blann: They're worried that they're going to tell them- I think a lot of us get worried that what they're getting tell us are things you don't necessarily- we didn't want to provide in the beginning. So if we put any sort of effort or thought into something, we've said like 'okay, we're going to do this widget and this campaign and this tool A, B, and C.' And we talk to people and it's like there's always that little bit of nervousness. Like are they going to agree with me or not?

Ryan Chapman: Well, you know, the [00:49:00] secret to that is don't build so much out. You know, if you look at the history of Fix Your Funnel it was not nearly what it is today when we started because what we did was what we knew for sure the market needed.

Jeb Blann: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: And then we let the market tell us where to go. And so, you know, I didn't do everything that the market asked for because some of the things they asked for I knew were bad ideas. And that's something you need to be able to do as well as, you know- you've got to know where the pitfalls are and not let somebody just say 'well, I want to go eat candy all day.' Well, yeah, I understand that. But you can't eat candy all day. It's going to rot your brain, your teeth, your health.

Jeb Blann: One of the things that I've always respected, if I can edify you a little bit, Ryan, is you've always talked about starting the conversation. And I think that part of that is the conversation before even the offer. Unless you happen to populate the niche you're targeting that should just give you more contacts within [00:50:00] that niche to talk to, frankly, because your experience may not be everybody's experience.

Ryan Chapman: Right.

Jeb Blann: But it's one of those things where you really may not necessarily understand what they need. I'll give you an example of somebody that has done a lot of Facebook advertising, saying that I can make the- I got a dentist 70 appointments in three days. 70 new patients in three days. And so I went ahead and just, sheer curiosity, watched the webinar. And what these were were reactivated patients into hygiene. They were basically patients that have been in the practice for a while and they got them into hygiene appointments. Well, that's not really what the hook said. You know, it's like so they post this stuff and it's like 'we can do this, we can do that.' And the thing about these tighter niches are is that they [00:51:00] understand that it's baloney. But they also know they have a specific need. So for example, I would never in a million years go up to a dentist that's in my niche and say 'hey, I can make your phone ring, get 70 hygiene appointments, you know, in the next 72 hours.' I'd have no clients if I offered them that.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Jeb Blann: That's not what they're interested in. What they're interested in is building the TMJD side of their practice. So if I go to him instead and say 'hey, we'll work together to add another 16 TMJD patients to your practice each month.' Now I have their attention. I haven't made a promise that I can't keep because I've also said WE are going to do this. It's not just me. If you do crappy service and you won't do the work you won't get the patients either.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah. That's, again, that's setting expectations, setting boundaries, on how everything's going to go. That's true for all businesses. [00:52:00] So, you said something I want to kind of dig into a little bit more which is conversations.

Jeb Blann: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: So what do you mean about conversations before they offer?

Jeb Blann: So, I love focus groups. And they're informal focus groups. I don't hire a firm or anything like that because I need to feel the room. But as an example, let's say that we were targeting a particular type of business or something like that and I saw that there was a company offering something similar to what I was thinking about offering. Okay, I will, full-on, I will call that a company and ask them what they think of that service. I will ask them if they're fitting their needs. What are they really looking for? Why are they willing to spend money on this? Is that what you really want? You know, get a feel for what they're actually looking for.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Jeb Blann: Have a conversation where you're [00:53:00] listening more than you're talking to these people.

Ryan Chapman: And you go into it with the intent to understand not to sell.

Jeb Blann: Absolutely and I will even tell them flat out 'this is not a sales call. I have nothing to sell you.' And it's just... And what I found is that they're usually willing to talk because a lot of times it's just one of those things where they don't necessarily know what they've purchased anyway. You know, a lot of times there's kind of like, you know, 'okay, I should do this.' Like my favorite one is with this in particular is every single provider I've come across that services dentists one of the first things they want to do is rebuild their website. It's the first thing! 'Oh, your website stinks. We need to rebuild it.' I've been doing a little bit of web development since about 1995. I can find plenty of things wrong with every website I view but it's not a service that we offer. So I'll even say-

Ryan Chapman: Well, the funny part- the reason I'm laughing [00:54:00] is I could run just about any business with with no website at all. Just a Facebook page which is sort of like... It's almost like a free website. You know, that's all you really need. Just where are we located? What's our phone number? That's about it. I need a place to put some offers. You know? The state of the website has been super overrated for the most part for a lot of things because if you're really doing marketing and sales a lot of what you need to communicate you can do a lot of the other ways.

Yeah, websites are super overrated in terms of what people spend on them. I mean, you're not- and see from my perspective as a business owner I'm always thinking about ROI. Not cost, but ROI.

Jeb Blann: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: So if I'm going to spend some money is it going to get a return? And that's the only evaluation I'm doing whenever I'm considering making a purchase. Other people will look at things just as expenses or whatever but I always look at ROI. If I'm going to spend the money on this [00:55:00] tool what is it going to do for my business? And it better be multiples of whatever I'm spending on it. You know what I mean?

Jeb Blann: Yeah, and I think that-

Ryan Chapman: So, if I'm going to redo the website how confident am I that that thing is going to give me a return on investment.?

Jeb Blann: Yeah. It's really... You know, I think that the point about having these conversations with people within that tight niche that you've kind of decided on or thought about, you decide you care enough about those people to work on them, is to see also what they keep seeing. You know, one of the things I found out was that dentists are really tired of these $300 a month tools that are so singular in focus. You know, they don't like it that these systems don't talk to each other.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Jeb Blann: So what ends up happening is they end up having, you know, 2 or $3000 a month worth of software costs. Nothing is talking to the other thing. They have to look in multiple places to see what their analytics look like. You know, that's understanding your [00:56:00] target. You know, a lot of a lot of those niches out there don't have that same problem. You know, it's-

Ryan Chapman: How long did it take you to actually get that comfortable with your market? Where you felt like 'okay, I really understand what their problems are.'

Jeb Blann: Actually it was... It happened twice, Ryan. It happened once when I was doing a print- I used to do print projects. By the time I hit- we would do these 16 page magazines that we would publish and we'd distribute and we would get about 20 to 1 ROI. And I remember when we did the first one it was kind of copying a little bit about something somebody else had done but we'd turned it into something a little bit different. Because we thought the ROI could be better and the person that developed the first thing obviously wasn't a designer and didn't consider their target at all.

So we honed in- and the first time we did it we had 20 to 1 ROI on this thing and it was fantastic! And then that little bit of doubt comes in and you [00:57:00] go 'what if I can't do this again?' And then it happened again and then it happened again. So we ended up with- after the second and third client that we did this for all of a sudden it was like we actually know what we're doing. We can do this sort of thing. It's not luck. And the same thing happened in terms of automation and digital marketing. The first client, you know, wow! How many of these things came together just at the right moment? How lucky was this? You know? Because the results were rather fantastic, they're not results I would ever promise or ever- I mean, I find that my clients are actually the ones that do this- I would never even mention it really. But you know when they're referring people to me 'oh, this guy this guy tripled my business in six years' or doubled in three or- you know, I would never say that! I would just feel like 'well, you know, we put a lot together and, you know, we're very confident in our program and [00:58:00] it requires a lot of effort on your part.' Because it really is a partnership in my case that the client has to do a lot.

So it was about the- it was somewhere between the second and third client that suddenly just kind of the light bulbs went off and we went 'we actually know what we're doing here.'

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Jeb Blann: And once that little light bulb goes off, wow! All of a sudden everything kind of comes into place. You don't necessarily worry about acquiring clients like you used to. Like it used to be like between the first and the second client in the digital marketing space it was like 'well, you know worked over here in Prescott, Arizona. Now, I'm going to talk to somebody in Bakersfield, California. Will this work or not?' You know, there’s that point of hesitation. Even though I knew what we were offering was something that they needed, like the result was what they needed, the methodology was something that was still kind of in question because we'd really only done it one or two times.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Jeb Blann: But once you've done [00:59:00] it a couple, two or three times, all of a sudden, I mean, honestly-

Ryan Chapman: Well, you really should give yourself a little bit of credit, too. Because it's not just two or three for anybody. You obviously have honed some skills to pay attention to some things that has demonstrated throughout this call. So I really appreciate you being on, Jeb. This was really phenomenal because I feel like we covered a lot of important points that are things I'm concerned about for, you know, our users, for people that are small businesses trying to get started with marketing automation.

These are critical components and they're often set to the side because they're not shiny. You know, they're not fancy. They're not tools. They're actual concepts you've got to get. And, frankly, nobody's teaching them. It's not like in high school or college you ever heard any of these things. You know what I mean? There are some things that are almost like alchemy, and they're only passed from one master to another, so to speak. And so you have to kind of be in these circles to hear some of these things [01:00:00] and really get these concepts. So I really appreciate you sharing a little bit of your magic today. How do people, if they do want to get a hold of you, how would you recommend they get ahold of you?

Jeb Blann: Well, the best thing to do really is just go ahead and text me. You can text me at (928)433-2905. You know, just mention that you heard this podcast or whatever so I'll kind of what it's about. But there's that and then there's also email. Then my email is pretty easy to remember- it's [email protected]. It's kind of a- for those of you who haven't met me, I'm 6'8". So I kind of fashion myself as a beast, I guess.

Ryan Chapman: Jeb is the only person I feel intimidated around. I'm always afraid you're gonna smash me.

Jeb Blann: I think I even reminded you like when I'm there you're not the biggest guy in the room.

Ryan Chapman: No! But, Jeb is a gentle giant, you know, so don't be intimidated at all.

[01:01:00] Jeb Blann: Well, I think that just if we can just remember that the reason why I start my conversations with potential coaching clients or potential clients I'm offering services to with 'what's your offer?' is everything about your business can be told through that offer. I can tell from your offer are you looking at a big, massive marketing expense? An explanation to get this thing across? Or is it going to be like one of those smooth things? And if you have the right offer, you're really just removing speed bumps to having people give you money. It's just the better your offer is the fewer speed bumps you have from their wallet to yours.

Ryan Chapman: So, for anyone that's listening, if you didn't get the formula for how to create the offer go through and listen one more time. You know, it's kind of a lost art. There's so much content out there that people just listen to something once or they halfway listen to it and then they move on. But some things are worth a second, a third or a fourth listen to. I can tell you from my experience in business and creating businesses that are [01:02:00] profitable that this conversation is one you'll want to listen to multiple times because laced throughout it are key principles for creating a great offer. So, thanks again, Jeb. I really appreciate it.

Jeb Blann: Thank you, Ryan! I had a lot of fun talking to you, as always.

Ryan Chapman: My pleasure.