Using SMS More Effectively with Ross Walker

interview series

Using SMS More Effectively with Ross Walker

Episode Transcription

[00:00:00] Ryan Chapman: Hey, this is Ryan Chapman with Fix Your Funnel. I'm glad to bring you yet another interview today. This one I'm really excited about because today's guest- we go way back. At least it feels like we go way back, Ross.

Ross Walker: Right? And I know what you mean.

Ryan Chapman: We've even eaten ice cream together. So it's a pretty intimate relationship that we have.

Ross Walker: You could say things are serious, yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, you could say they're getting serious. But what I'm really excited about Ross is Ross is one of- well, first off he's one of the best guys you'll ever meet but on top of that he's very smart and he figures out ways to use things that we've done at Fix Your Funnel that I hadn't even thought about. And some of the concepts- this may come as a surprise to you, Ross, maybe not- but some of the concepts that you think came from me actually came from you, that are in my book, The Messaging Connection.

We'll get into that in a little round about as we get through today's interview. But yeah, [00:01:00] I'm really excited for you guys to hear from Ross because he has done some amazing things over his career and I've just been- it's been a pleasure to watch him work. I'm always interested in what he has to say. He thinks that it might not be that way sometimes but when he tells me 'hey, Ryan, I think we should do this.' Well, usually I do because it's Ross talking. So back to-

You upset Trent greatly the other day because there was a feature that we were talking about. You were like 'hey, it would be really cool if you did this.' I was like 'nah, I've been resisting doing that for a long time.' And you were like 'yeah, but this would be really cool if you do it like that.' And I reported to Trent 'yeah, I think we're going to do this.' And he was like '...Ross is a butt. For three years I've been trying to convince you to do that and he does it in one chat!'

Ross Walker: That's awesome! Well, if I can both get a feature and upset Trent at the same time it's a good day.

Ryan Chapman: Well so, with that where I would like to start with these [00:02:00] interviews is just to get your background. Like how did you get into marketing automation? Because that seems to be the bulk of what we discuss in one way or another. So how did you get into it? Because you're no spring chicken so I can't imagine this was the thing you started doing right out of high school. How did you get into it?

Ross Walker: Oh man. So my first foray into marketing was like 20 years ago back before the bubble burst. But I'm not going to- I'll just say that. I won't give you every connect the dot between there and there. But it was back, let's see, it's been almost 10 years ago? No. Less than that. Let's say 8 years ago? I had a friend that had a really good idea on a new startup he wanted to do and he brought me in. He's like, 'hey, let's work together. Let's get this startup going. Where can we go with this?' So we got it up and we started getting it going, got the development done. And we entered into one of those incubator contests where hey, you can apply and if you get [00:03:00] accepted they take 10 of them, blah blah blah. So we won, we got in and we got all the way through and came out the other side and received funding from an angel investor.

And we're working on that and during that time I'd go to different marketing, local marketing events, and I'm at this one where this guy's presenting and he's going on and on and on and on. He talks about, you know, marketing. And he's like- he goes by one slide. It was like three seconds long- and he's like 'if you're really serious about marketing and want to automate things you can always go to something like Infusionsoft, but that's not for a lot of people' and he went on. And that was like the hook. Like, wait, what? And so-

Ryan Chapman: So what year was this?

Ross Walker: This has got to be... Let's see, 2019 now. So yeah, let me think... 2004? 4 or 5?

Ryan Chapman: Really? Wow!

Ross Walker: Yeah, it was like 04 or 05?

Ryan Chapman: That's a year before I even heard of it.

Ross Walker: So maybe 05 or 06 somewhere right around there. I gotta- I'd probably have to go look.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, I first [00:04:00] heard 2006. We got serious when we started our first company in 2007 that needed it.

Ross Walker: Okay. So let's see- we're 2019. No, no, no. So it's got to be 10. No, I'm sorry. I'm forgetting a whole almost decade. So, 2010? 2010, 11. I gotta go- I'll go look and we can even edit it.

Ryan Chapman: Ross, you are worse than I in time.

Ross Walker: Oh, I'm so bad. If it didn't happen in the same year one of my kids was born then I don't know when it was. This didn't happen when any of my kids were born, so.

Long story short- I jotted it down. I'm like 'that was interesting.' So I wrote down Infusionsoft. Next day I jump on the laptop and google Infusionsoft and I go look at the software and I'm like 'holy cow! This is really impressive!' And- this is a part I don't know if I've ever shared with you Ryan. But you don't go very far into learning about Infusionsoft and you've quickly found Fix Your Funnel.

So, I'm looking at Fix Your Funnel and Infusionsoft. I get the demo of Infusionsoft and [00:05:00] I'm looking at these together and I actually called my investor- the angel investor that had given us the money- like 'hey, we gotta talk.' And he's like 'well, we talk every week so-' And I'm like 'yeah, I got an agenda, a big agenda item for you.' And I went in and I showed him Infusionsoft and Fix Your Funnel and I said, 'hey this project that we've been working on for a while, you know, we did all this really cool stuff and it's starting to get some traction? Yeah, I just discovered that I can build the software for this startup that we've been doing in about two hours and we're paying a developer a very healthy fee to build what's already been done.' I was absolutely-

Ryan Chapman: Wow, so it was like a custom thing then.

Ross Walker: Yeah. We were building a custom- the short version, it was an easy way to collect reviews through text messaging.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Ross Walker: You know, like, you go to the restaurant and you text DINNER and it says Hey, thanks for visiting! And we have the keyword, 10-digit code, it'd ask them a couple of questions. It was just an automated SMS conversation. That's all it [00:06:00] was. And then the Thank You page just directed them to leave a Google review or Yelp review if the review is high enough. It was- that was all it was and we were paying our developer a lot of money for that. And I went to him and I'm like 'look, this is where it's at. I could rebuild this.' And anyway, that was kind of a catalyst that we ended up saying 'hey, you know what? Let's just take what assets we have. We're going to sell that over here and shut down this company. And then from then on out I was like, 'well that one's done. I'm going to get into Infusionsoft and get back into automated marketing.' I had done marketing before but never automated.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Ross Walker: From that was- that was the trigger- Infusionsoft being mentioned on the slide, me finding Fix Your Funnel and going 'oh my gosh, these people have already done what my startup is trying to create!' And at that point I'm like 'great! Well, they're already ahead. I've got customers that want it and need it. I'll just use this tool.' That's kind of how I got into Infusionsoft.

Ryan Chapman: Wow! That's an interesting start. Yeah, I've never heard that one.

Ross Walker: [00:07:00] Yeah, so thanks to you. Thanks for beating up my developer.

Ryan Chapman: Well, you're welcome for ruining your startup.

Ross Walker: Yeah!

Ryan Chapman: So you segwayed from that then pretty quick and you started- I think when I remember meeting you was at an Icon.

Ross Walker: Yep.

Ryan Chapman: One of the Infusionsoft conferences and then- you, at the time, you were working with a couple other guys.

Ross Walker: Yeah, I quickly grew from there and just the local market, when I found out how cool Infusionsoft was, within two months I contacted Kara and said 'hey, I got to get certified.' And then it just spread really quick in Utah to say 'hey, you know, Ross knows what he's doing in Infusionsoft.' So those clients came around. I teamed up with a couple other guys- Brent and John and we started doing some stuff together. And while we did good and had a lot of fun we also discovered that we are three entrepreneurs that work well independently. So, I was back to myself and that's the way I've been ever since.

[00:08:00] Ryan Chapman: I think the the idea of working with other entrepreneurs in a single business is very romantic because all the time, you know, people are approaching me- I'm sure they're approaching you- saying 'hey, we should do something together.'

Ross Walker: Yep.

Ryan Chapman: And the reality is we're all independent knuckleheads that, if we were all in the same business, it wouldn't be good.

Ross Walker: Yeah, exactly!

Ryan Chapman: There's a rare situation where, you know, it can work and part of it can be if you're related and get along like Trent and I do. But even then there can be strain from time to time.

So yeah, that's interesting. So you kind of spun off on your own but when you guys were working together I recall that you were doing stuff with different like book launches and you were working with people who are authors, things of that nature. Was that accurate?

Ross Walker: Yeah. We were doing-

Ryan Chapman: Or was that just my picture?

Ross Walker: No, that was probably- when I very first got going, man, I was taken anywhere from, literally, plumbers to, one of my funnest ones was like a rocket [00:09:00] manufacturer- like, rockets-that-go-into-space manufacturing- and everything in between. But when I was working with John and Brent a lot they were like 'hey, let's do some book launches.' We did some really fun stuff with Laurel Langmier, with her- she's got some great education and she had books and programs. We had a lot of fun coming up with campaigns for her there. And that, that's really- that kind of got us into the influencer, guru, book writer, author space that a lot of people serve now.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Ross Walker: Yeah, that was- and that's a lot of fun because when you've got someone with a lot of really cool assets and content then it's like hey, how can we put this together in a way that serves the people the best in a fun new way? I mean it's- the education is the same but how do we present it to them in a fun, logical manner that they've never had? Like, I'm a big fan of your book, of the Messaging Conversations? Messaging- I'm sorry- Messaging Connection.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, thanks for butchering it.

Ross Walker: Yeah, [00:10:00] sorry to butcher that title there! But things like that, it's like 'hey, let's stop the mass marketing and how can we scale individual marketing?' And that's the really fun part.

So we did that with Laurel and a few others and... Yeah, that's... That's probably what keeps me going, is the fun way of 'hey, how can we make this different and it doesn't have to be hard?'

Ryan Chapman: Well, you know, there's something that is really valuable from working with people who are doing a lot. Some people might think that Laurel runs on high octane gas or something becase she's always moving really fast.

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: But there is something, though, to working with people that are willing to make investments in their marketing, you know, that are willing to do some of those things. You can learn a whole lot by doing a lot of action in a short period of time.

I'm sure there's quite a few lessons you learned as you went through the process of working with some of the people who are willing to invest in marketing [00:11:00] in order to make more money. Are there any lessons that kind of stood out to you?

Ross Walker: Yeah, a lesson that started there, and I'm still learning every day, is that when you've got someone with that much content and they're willing to experiment and try things and move fast- like you said- do a lot.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Ross Walker: You don't have any more excuses of like well, 'I'm waiting for just the right content' or 'I'm waiting for just this.' Like, perfection doesn't matter. Let's get in there and test it. I'd rather waste a thousand bucks on a test to get an answer than wait and see if we can guess the right way to do it. And my internal gut is always like 'hey, I think I can guess the right way the first time.' And that doesn't work. Let's get in there and let's discover the hundred ways that don't work really fast-

Ryan Chapman: Well, that's been my observation too, is that the reality is the person who thinks that they're the smartest really isn't. But even if, with their best guess, there's a good chance it's wrong when it comes to marketing.

So, what you can do though, is if you have [00:12:00] 10 guesses, there's a chance that one of them will be right, especially the more experience you have. But even if you have a lot of experience you're not going to get it right the first time like 90% of the time.

Ross Walker: Yep.

Ryan Chapman: Usually you're going to have to try a few different things to see which one actually resonates with that particular market. Especially if you're going into new markets. Which is part of the challenge that you would have faced is even though, you know, they're all the same type of business that you were working with each one is different in terms of who are they talking to and what thing resonates with them. And so kind of having an approach to nail down, you know, how do we get to the answer the quickest. Is that important? I think that brings up another important point that's important for business owners in general to understand which is that speed is more important than precision when it comes to getting a business off the ground.

Ross Walker: Yes.

Ryan Chapman: You do need some precision, some level of precision, but not as fine as most people focus in on. They focus in on a bunch of little details that [00:13:00] actually make no significant difference. And in the process delay getting to market and they kill their opportunity to have a great idea that could take off because they're not able to get enough momentum to break gravity and get flight into the air. That was, I think, one of the things that we did that was right in our first business that, you know, taught us a lot was that we just went full blast into it and we knew that things weren't going to work perfectly. But we would learn and we would iterate quickly. So, you know, we send out an email blast and we get no response? Okay, we know that doesn't work. It's not like ah, jeez, you know? We send out direct mail and we get two instead of the hundred that we were expecting? Okay. Now we know what doesn't work.

Ross Walker: And I know what can at least get me two so the next one, if it's better, then we'll try that one more- you know, iterate off of a bad thing other than trying to continually guess where am [00:14:00] I to go?

Ryan Chapman: Yeah. I think that's a super valuable lesson for people and it can get lost because we want to do well, right? I don't think that perfectionism comes out of a bad place- I think it comes out of a great place- which is we really want to do well by, you know, what we're representing to the world.

But I think Dan Kennedy had a phrase that helped me the most to get over my perfectionism which was a major struggle I had at first. My dad used to say I would have paralysis by analysis because I was just always thinking about all the possibilities and stuff. And so Dan Kennedy had the phrase that said good is good enough.

Ross Walker: There you go.

Ryan Chapman: Well, that's true! Good is good enough. And so that doesn't say crappy is good enough, but good is good enough. And there's a big difference between good and perfect. And good though, is manageable and doable and you can try that out see what happens.

Ross Walker: You know, the funny thing, Ryan, is like as I get older and older I'd like to think I'm collecting the wisdom that makes it so I don't have to test and [00:15:00] try anymore. But I think that's almost the opposite. I'm like I should have the wisdom to know that others figure it out by testing rather than thinking I'm so smart that I'm going to guess it right the first time. And that's- It's counterintuitive, but it's right.

Ryan Chapman: If you just have a little observation of the world around you, right? Go look at an insect. An insect gets a bunch of stuff done but doesn't get it done because it knows perfectly where it's going. It's mostly groping and then using feedback to get it on track.

Ross Walker: Nice.

Ryan Chapman: So that's a very simple mechanism that nature has refined for us. And that teaches us a pretty good principle, which is if you're moving forward your chances of getting there a lot better than if you're just standing still. Now, I'm sure there's some finite arguments that can be made against that but I think overall the principal stays true.

Let's go, let's move on to what- like, where did you go from there? So you guys went your separate ways, learned a lot together, had some great experiences, I'm [00:16:00] sure. Where did the- where did marketing automation take you next?

Ross Walker: I think probably the- for myself, the internal lessons I got is, right as we were breaking that up, we were kind of dividing up clients and opportunities and I took the opportunity to go work with Frank Kern. I was still a consultant, wasn't an employee. But got to go to- not to California, I didn't go to Frank's office. But I go to California a lot and help Frank run his boot camps and help him rework a lot of his automations. And got to build stuff.

But for me, it was learning just a ton. For being the new age guy that people think Frank is, it's built on just sound marketing principles. But the other fun part was is he was always open to exploring and trying new things. He was definitely all for let's fail fast and let's test this out. If it works- awesome! If not... So then from Frank-

Ryan Chapman: I think one of his famous phrases is -I'm running a marketing experiment which implies I'm going to see if something fails or [00:17:00] not.

Ross Walker: Yeah, and if it does or doesn't, either way, there was either money or a lesson and both of which are a lot of value, so... He was happy with either result as long as we learned.

So that one was a ton of fun. And I think that's probably, from that point on, I've been working with just coaches, coaches and influencers from then. Just because of the lessons I learned from Frank are easily applicable into that kind of marketing.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Ross Walker: That just kind of naturally fit. I don't do much ecommerce, no products and potions or things like that. Mostly just high ticket services and masterminds.

Ryan Chapman: Okay, so this comes back to the principle that I think is like one of the central principles in my book, The Messaging Connection. And well, I think you kind of alluded to it before we started this episode, that you thought I had kind of influence too that way. Maybe I did, maybe I said something before because it was kind of my intuition that that was the best way to go.

But I think some work that you did [00:18:00] with Frank was what really illustrated to me the power of that concept. Because the nature of my work is I'm always creating and doing some stuff. But I'm fairly disconnected from the end results. And so I only get to hear them anecdotally periodically and for some reason I'm always surprised. I'm like 'oh wow, that's great. That worked exactly how I thought I would!' You know, it kind of increases my confidence to trust my intuition and keep going in that direction with whatever the tools are or the education that we're putting out. But maybe you can share the story of Frank Kern and the webinar just because I think that it's instructive to people on the concept that we were talking about. Like I credit you because it kind of was the biggest example of how effective it can be and that's one thing that Frank's really good for is he's always moving so quickly that-

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: I think his results go both ways, right? When it's- when [00:19:00] something doesn't go right it's pretty bad. But when it goes, right, it's also really good. And so these-

Ross Walker: There's a lot more-

Ryan Chapman: At stake so to speak and so it makes a more poignant example of things. Plus he's not- I don't consider him to be normal in any way.

Ross Walker: Yep. He would agree.

Ryan Chapman: He's a pretty exceptional individual when it comes to marketing and sales. I know he mostly talks about sales, but he is- like he's got the southern charm and coupled with some pretty sophisticated understanding of the way words and phrases impact people. And he does some stuff almost like black magic because he's so smooth about it.

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: I think some people are aware of what he's doing but a lot of people are not and so that makes- it puts him at a huge advantage. And so some things you should- I wouldn't expect would have as big an impact but when they do have a big impact and they're strictly mechanical that tells me [00:20:00] that it would work for anybody and be just as powerful. So I kind of set it up really big so don't mess it up.

Ross Walker: Don't let you down! Frank's always, well at this point, he was doing lots and lots of webinars. So we were always looking at the different conversion points in webinars. I'm like how can we get more conversions out of each webinar? And one of the big, big places that you miss a lot of profits is okay, they attended the webinar but they didn't buy and that's a big gap you miss right there.

And so we were like hey, let's- I want to drop a text message in there. Because Fix Your Funnel is growing all the time. You guys are always adding new features. But I'm like the dialer that we have with Fix Your Funnel, we can start a two-way conversation. And we can start it with only the right people, you know? They haven't bought, they did attend the webinar and we know how long it has been since the webinars been over. So let's give them an hour and after an hour, if they haven't bought it yet, let's send him a- well, I'm going to [00:21:00] steal from you. I didn't know what to call it, but you've coined it best- so it's a conversation starter. So let's send them a text message that says 'hey, this is Ross at Frank Kern's office. If you're interested Frank's allowed me to offer up' and we'd say whatever the bonus was. 'Let me know if that might work for you.' And just a simple 'hey, hope you enjoyed it. I might have something but if you're interested you've got to call me or text me back.'

And the first time we did it, it was really amazing. We got flooded with texts and we almost had more sales than Frank did, live on his webinar. And then the second time we put that in a webinar, from then on out, we always beat him. So whatever he could close live, we were doing more. And I think it was like the fourth? Maybe the fourth or fifth- I'd have to look to be sure- we were doubling the sales of people that would text in and they'd say 'really? Is this you?' And they'd ask one or two questions to make sure it wasn't an automated thing.

And so I was [00:22:00] handling 30 conversations by text message and obviously you can't tie up a phone conversation like that. So we do 30 text messages and they'd say 'well I just had one question' or 'what about this?' Or 'what about that bonus?' And we'd answer it and great! Send them a link to the order form and- Like I said, we were doubling the sales, added more than a million in revenue that year.

Ryan Chapman: So there's a few principles that I want to highlight in this whole story because it's a very fascinating story. But the very first one is none of that would have been possible if Frank hadn't opened the door to texting in the first place.

So he had the foresight to say 'hey, let's ask for the phone number.' Now I think, I believe, his original intention with that was just to get them to show up, right? With the registration reminder.

Ross Walker: Yeah! Yeah, we implemented the text reminders way before we implemented conversation starting.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, you know, that's where most people focus when it comes to texting and webinars, that I've noticed, is they do the reminder which is- it's important. That's a good one. But I really feel like that's [00:23:00] the least leverage that you have in messaging, in the whole thing. Because getting them to show up doesn't change the human psychological concept that most people, like if someone does everything that a buyer does but buy, it's not because they don't think that you have something for them. You know what I mean?

Ross Walker: Yeah!

Ryan Chapman: Why did you hang out on the webinar the whole time if you weren't interested at all? You don't do it. If you're like- 10 minutes in if you're like, 'well, this is total garbage, this isn't for me.' You just jump off! You don't stick around to the end. So if you stick around-

Ross Walker: Exactly!

Ryan Chapman: You're obviously interested. And if you don't buy it, it's like what you were saying, it's usually one question or one concern.

Ross Walker: Yep! It's not like they're paying them to work.

Ryan Chapman: No! That's the tragedy of the whole thing, though, is if people realize how much money they let just pass by them.

Ross Walker: Yeah.

[00:24:00] Ryan Chapman: Because they didn't open a space where prospects, who did everything but buy, could just say 'you know, I got this question' or 'hey, I wasn't sure about this. Can you confirm this for me?' And it's that one thing that's holding them back. I think that most people would be severely depressed for at least a couple of weeks if they really understood how much money they have lost out on. You mentioned Frank was pretty TO'd when he found out how well the post webinar sales were going with the conversations.

Ross Walker: Yeah, he was, you know, happy for the revenue, but he's like- he takes pride in his salesmanship and he can close a webinar better than most people. So when the text message was doubling his results he was like 'I'm happy I'm wrong' kind of thing.

Ryan Chapman: Yes.

Ross Walker: Yeah, it was- and now that they've changed that relationship now all those people that have texted they're so much easier to text in the future. [00:25:00] Like we've already got that relationship. They kindled it. They were talking with us.

Ryan Chapman: They know it's possible.

Ross Walker: Yeah. And yeah, it was wonderful. After that there was a lot of places that we started looking for conversion points that we thought we could improve. And 'hey, what can we do with text?' And it's huge. I speak on SMS from different stages here and there and I have one slide that I have- I'm like 'if you just replace your emails with SMS, I'm gonna hunt you down and kill you.' Because that's not what it is. Don't don't just say, 'oh, if SMS gets good results I'll just add it to every one of my emails and put that in there.' I'm like, 'no!' They're different. It's a different channel. So you need to look at your pipeline and say 'okay, is this a conversion point where SMS would make sense?' It's not just a chance to ping somebody or annoy them.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah.

Ross Walker: But would a conversation change the relationship here? Yes? Great! Then SMS. If you're looking just to get an alert in front of them please don't do it.

Ryan Chapman: So one of the things that [00:26:00] I find that is when someone is using Fix Your Funnel and then they're like 'you know, this is becoming too expensive.' Whenever I hear those words, I know you're not doing it right. Because if you're doing it right it is the best return on investment ever. If it ever becomes expensive it's because you're doing it wrong. It's not because it's too expensive. You're treating text messages like email and because you're doing that you're not getting the results you should. Because it- really it is, it's that relationship-building medium.

And that goes back to maybe a bigger systemic problem that I was observing- I know you probably could speak to this as well- where people are finding their huge email lists just are not as effective and that effectiveness is on a constant decline because there's really no connection with the list. Even the people that do it best struggle because they're emailing so much that it's [00:27:00] just difficult.

The market is shifting and so you've got to be able to know how to formulate a real relationship with people. And that means- it doesn't mean don't use email but it means you've got to recognize when you should use other mediums besides email.

Ross Walker: Exactly. I hear, too, that it's expensive every once in a while. I'm like... It's like 4 cents. If you can't drastically improve your chance of closing someone with 7 or 8 text messages back and forth- we're still less than two bucks here, folks. I mean, if you can't invest two bucks to close-

Ryan Chapman: I always assume either you've got no margin, your price point is super small or you're severely doing it wrong.

Ross Walker: You're trying to blast thousands of people.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, you're using a surgical knife to cut down a forest and so-

Ross Walker: Nice!

Ryan Chapman: You know, really it is, it's that precise and that right there. It's very personal. So if it's done right then you [00:28:00] get huge results. I don't imagine that Frank was complaining about the cost of text messages.

Ross Walker: Nope.

Ryan Chapman: With the results he was getting. It probably wasn't even on his radar. But that's also because he has trained himself to recognize investment versus expense.

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: So, interesting distinction a lot of people struggle with. I mean, you probably have recognized this because you've worked with a bunch of people who are successful, right? And you probably occasionally get someone who's not successful that comes through the pipeline. How would you say that that distinction between investment and cost- Is that like a pretty consistent one across the board or am I just exaggerating things?

Ross Walker: No, I totally see the same thing in- because the people that- the question I see between investment and cost is they'll look at like the monthly- I can't remember what Fix Your Funnel costs, 50 bucks a month or something like that?- And they'll start going 'oh, it's another subscription, another subscription.' And the ones that see it as an investment they're like, 'so how many people could I reach?' [00:29:00] And 'oh wow!' And they're asking how they can reach their crowd instead of worrying about a subscription. And that's the go to that I look at and I can tell where the conversation is going to lead. If they're worried about a subscription cost I'm like 'are you kidding me?' Or the investment of 'wow, I could really get right in front of them.'

Ryan Chapman: If I were in your shoes, I'd probably use that as a filter to know who I should work with and who I shouldn't because it's a night and day experience. And working with somebody who gets it. You know, when I say people that get it, I mean people that get business, you know understand that, you know, the problem comes from a place of fear because they're not confident in their ability to generate revenue. And when you're not confident in your ability to generate revenue everything becomes a cost as well.

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: So it's important to gain some confidence in your ability to convert prospects into paying customers and your ability to keep them long term. I had an interesting call with Troy Broussard today [00:30:00] and we were chatting about- because we're kind of trying to expand our market share a little bit- and I was kind of talking too him about some things that I thought were working or not. And he said 'Ryan, I really think the secret to Fix Your Funnel's success is that you guys have a great product and you do really good customer support. Because of that people just blab.'

Ross Walker: Yeah!

Ryan Chapman: That's so disappointing, you know? I wanted to be a good marketer. But I feel like, you know, if when people understand what value they bring to the marketplace and then really hone in on doing that, then they're able to communicate that. But I do think that we do some some decent communication and we're looking at marketing as more than just little tactics. It's an overall-

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: -Approach and that's how I encourage people to look at it in their own business. In fact I co-authored a book with a kid that worked for us for a little bit, trying to help him get positioning for himself. And I called it The Four Cornerstones of a Rock Solid [00:31:00] Marketing Plan. And one of the first things that I learned when we were working with the real estate agents in our first training company Trent and I had together was that the value of a referral source is phenomenal.

And so you really want, you know, before you start going out and trying to find cold traffic and get people who have never heard of you to trust you and then spend money with you, you get a lot more leverage by finding one person who can send you 10, 20, 30 people and really investing in them and you know gaining their confidence. Because once you have their confidence that you can- you'll fulfill the promises you make to the marketplace then they're going to be really confident referring you to other people. And so I always look for that first when I'm talking to somebody that's like 'yeah, we're just trying to grow the business but we're struggling.' And just all those thoughts are interesting to me because that was- I feel like so many people overlook that because they're excited about Facebook ads.

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: And if they understood the power of just [00:32:00] having a couple referral sources- I call them referral sources, but, you know, that can translate to like partner, somebody- like today, case in point, I was having a home inspection done on the place where we're in because we're buying it and the home inspector says, 'okay, you've got 20 roof tiles that are broken. Here's the card to the roofer I recommend.'

Ross Walker: Nice!

Ryan Chapman: And then 'also your AC unit, the reason it struggles every summer is because it's half the size it's supposed to be for this size of a house. So you may want to look into that. Here's the AC guy I recommend.'

Ross Walker: Nice.

Ryan Chapman: Those dudes ought to be taking him out to lunch every chance they get because he's just doing marketing for them. He's in a position of authority because he's come in just to inspect the home and then he's saying 'look, there's a bunch of shysters out there. This guy you can trust. Here, go to him.' Well, you know, how much research do you think I'm going to do?

Ross Walker: Zero.

Ryan Chapman: I'm probably not going to do any research. I'm just going to call up the guy that they recommended because guess how I got a hold of him?

Ross Walker: A referral.

Ryan Chapman: It's representing beyond those transactions [00:33:00] - 'hey, you should go with Tom McDonald. He's a great home inspector.' I'm like 'okay!' Called him first.

Ross Walker: You're not even questioning because it's third party.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, I did kind of a funny test on that. I did a text message- I called him and he answered. He was on the roof of a house. He was like 'hey, yeah, can just text me your information? I'll get something back and set an appointment.' So I texted him. I go 'you know what? I'm going to text these other two because I was given three names.

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Text these other two and see who responds, you know, because this guy immediately responded. So I'm going to text these other two. So, I text the other two and their numbers are not text enabled. I'm like, 'these guys are jokers. What kind of business are they running?' This is the modern age, you know?

Ross Walker: Yeah!

Ryan Chapman: And if they want to have it they could have a shot at the job. It was only you know, 500 bucks. But, 500 bucks is 500 bucks for a guy that gets paid by the hour basically.

Ross Walker: Yeah, if that's how they chose to do business then that's an [00:34:00] easy way to get it.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, so, you know, very interesting. So we kind of went all over the place with all that but are there any other observations that you've made through your career of marketing automation up until this point that really stand out to you? I think you kind of started to touch a little bit on the conversation starters. Was there more that you've observed on that besides what we said?

Ross Walker: The conversation starters is a huge one. I think the other one is it's such a fun industry to be in and there's so many amazing tools that are always popping up and the tools that we love are always getting new features. The further I go on and the more clients I find they come to me with unsatisfactory stories from the previous agency and it all comes around. Either them or the agency just had a brand-new hammer and they were just looking for nails.

And people lack the plan. I'm like if you plan, like you always say, plan with the end in mind and say 'hey, there's that- this is how we want to sell to them. So let's work it backwards and then [00:35:00] just stick with that plan until it's proven.' I mean you can test it and fail it, but keep refining it. But have a plan.

It amazes me how, as long as we've known that true fact, how it's just totally disregarded anymore. There's so many people that won't have a plan that part of my sales process is now- like you actually have to pay me to help make your plan before I even implement it. And it stands out. People are like 'I wish everyone would do this.' I'm like 'yeah, well, I'm kind of glad they don't because it helps me sell easier.'

But just having a defining plan and saying 'there it is. This is what we're going to do. Obviously, there's places that we can optimize and improve. But until we launch it, we don't know. So let's do this plan.' And then the knowledge, the wisdom I guess, comes from in there saying 'hey, I know that- like here's two or three places that we're going to use conversation starters. Here's one or two places that SMS might just be reminders and that starts the [00:36:00] relationship for the future conversations.' But by using these simple, basic tried-and-true conversations, you know, used to be known as the best way now I think SMS is the best way.

Sorry, that turned back to SMS commercial. I guess what I'm saying is that one of the things I've learned in all the time is have a plan but just stick to that plan. Execute on it the first time. And we can throw it away if it fails but at least then we'll have a base.

Ryan Chapman: Well, and that's another pet peeve of mine. Because having been around the marketing automation world I was, you know, working with autoresponder, whatever group, what was it? One was at 1ShoppingCart, you know, some of those other ones, you know, before I was introduced to Infusionsoft.

But, you know, as I've been here for that, you know, I guess we're going on 13 years working in this industry, one of the things that I've observed is that people don't really have any framework in which they make decisions on what they should [00:37:00] automate. They just kind of go 'what do you recommend?' You know? 'I don't know, what do you recommend?' You know, they just kind of start- they either sit there and they hem and haw about it or they automate everything, right? They'll go to a two day bootcamp, get everything automated in their business. And the reality is until you know what the problem is in your business you have no business automating anything, you know? Where is the real issue? What is the thing that you need to actually focus in on? And if you go and just start automating willy-nilly without a plan, because I think that's probably what you're doing in your plan, is you're identifying ok, what are the real needs?

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: What is it that the business would benefit from if we're going to do anything? What would it benefit from? And too frequently that question isn't asked because people are too concerned about getting money and less concerned about doing what's right for the customer. And if you really care about the customer, which means you got to care about people as [00:38:00] humans, not as-

And I think that's why that was such an important part of the book, The Messaging Connection- is to help people see that how they see their customers really changes how they communicate with them. If you see somebody as being a brother or sister, you know, versus someone that's got money in their wallet that belongs to you and you just got to get it without going to jail. You know, that's gonna build sales. Then going to approach your methodology that a lot of people have been ingrained with, either directly or indirectly. But when you actually see people as humans that are trying to accomplish something in their limited time on this planet, then I think it changes dramatically the nature of your approach and you start thinking about how can you really benefit and help people?

And when you do that, then you'll do the right thing by people. The big- that's where your planning isn't just a sales tactic. It's not just to differentiate [00:39:00] yourself. It's because you genuinely care about that individual and their business and their success. And you know, 'hey, we're not going to go anywhere if we don't know where we're going. So let's get clear on that.'

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: So many people don't do that. They just are like 'I'm selling this thing. Buy it.' It's like my van. I had to replace all the tires on it because, I'm embarrassed to say, but they were going threadbare. Like the way those are showing on it- because I haven't been paying attention. We were getting ready to go on a long trip and I was like, 'oh crap, I better those replaced.' So I call up the place and I say 'here's my vehicle. I need four tires for it.' And instead of really finding out what they should have put on there they just picked four that they had in stock that would work for the van, but weren't best for the van.

So I get it back and it just drives like a boat and like I'm 'whoa, whoa, whoa, it wasn't like this when I brought it in.' And they're like 'no, it's fine!' And they insisted that the tires were fine. Well, then I've got a good mechanic who's like a race car mechanic.

[00:40:00] Ross Walker: Oh!

Ryan Chapman: And so he's really experienced a bunch of stuff which I like because that's kind of how I see myself as being, really experienced in a bunch of stuff and then focusing on something really important. And so he's like 'yeah, the reason this thing is driving like a boat is because these are car tires and you need truck tires-'

Ross Walker: Oh my gosh!

Ryan Chapman: '-Go back and tell them to put truck tires on this because that's what you need for this so that it'll drive well.' The guy was so focused and under so much pressure to make money that he didn't do what was right. So now he's having to go buy me new tires and he's gonna replace my old tires with the new ones I just bought. And he may lose a little bit on that. I know he's lost time because he's had to talk to me several times.

Ross Walker: Right.

Ryan Chapman: Because he didn't do the right thing. You know, he potentially could have harmed me but he certainly didn't win any favors or any- like am I gonna refer anybody to that tire shop? And the answer is no but I might tell them how terrible they are.

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Well shoot I just did it on this webinar, actually. I didn't say the name of it.

Ross Walker: Now we [00:41:00] just know!

Ryan Chapman: Well, you know what I mean?

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: You don't win anything by just focusing on the money. If you focus on what's really best for people and that like- identifying what's really going wrong in the business before we start getting prescriptions is really important.

I think maybe that's where I get that from is from the whole doctor concept. We know if we went into a doctor's office, and before we sat down they're like 'dude, this green pill- you've got to try. It is pretty fantastic.' We would go 'dude, this guy's a nut job!' And we would just leave. You would expect them to do... Like take our blood pressure, weigh us, ask us questions or anything like that before they start prescribing. And so frequently, I'll see that that doesn't happen, either by the business owner or a consultant that they hired. I'm really glad you brought that up because it's really critical for people to understand. It's really important to diagnose before you prescribe.

And when it comes to marketing automation, you will get absolutely no benefit out of any automation software or extension. You won't get a [00:42:00] benefit out of Fix Your Funnel. You won't get a benefit out of Infusionsoft or the- like anything if you don't first identify what's the actual problem that we're having and does the actual solution involve using these tools? And coming at it that way is such a big difference in terms of outcome.

Ross Walker: Yep. There's still quite a few out there that will still do a diagnosis and regardless of what the answer is they'll still give you the green pill. Well, that was nice.

Ryan Chapman: Wow! What do you know? It's the green pill!

Ross Walker: Wow! Exactly.

Ryan Chapman: It shocks me every time

Ross Walker: Yep. It's easier just to turn- like, if you... In my experience, thus far, when I do one of those I'm like 'hey, you know what this it looks like this, something like this, is going to be the best answer for you and I'm not the guy that loves to implement that. You should go talk to that guy over there, that lady over there.' It's easier than just trying to make that green pill solve his problem because it's not going to.

Ryan Chapman: Well, that's so smart, too, for when you recognize that what you offer is not a fit for the person and there's nothing that you have that [00:43:00] is going to solve their problem. Pointing them another direction seems like 'well, I'm sending away money,.' But the truth of the matter is it does a few things. One is it primes the pump for potential referrals from that person that you refer them to. Because a lot of people want to have people send them referrals, but they don't want to refer anybody. If you don't refer you can't be referred to. That's usually how it works. So referring somebody, one: it primes the pump for potential for them to say, 'you know, that's not good through me. You should go talk to Ross. Ross is actually way better at that. You know, I do this. He does that.' So, that's one thing. Yeah, go ahead.

Ross Walker: If you take that I found it just pushes the problem downstream. It's like they're going to come back when the green pill didn't solve it. They're going to be sick and they're going to ask you why. You just avoided the inevitable. You just did it after the transaction.

Ryan Chapman: That's the bigger problem because that gums up the business, right? So if you think of your business as a machine the last thing you want is things coming back the wrong direction. Because that [00:44:00] just stops everything. A wrong client messes up your whole flow for everything, especially if you're dealing with a team, right? Every person on the team is supposed to handle a different part. If things start coming up the wrong direction and someone's like 'yeah, that's not right. That's not what I expected. This isn't working for me.' Well, that just ruins everything.

And so it's not only the- if you send them away to somebody else you actually save yourself money and you make your business more profitable in the long run because you're not taking in something that's not right for your business, not right for them.

And then, you know, here's the really good thing- if you do that authentically then when you have sales conversations or when you're trying to set up sales conversations, which is part of like the autopilot appointment funnel- part of that process is after they've evaluated some initial information that we want them to see before they make a decision that they want to talk to somebody- we're not saying 'hey, yeah, get on the phone and we'll sell you.' We're saying 'get on the phone and let's evaluate if [00:45:00] you're really a match.'

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Because we want to make sure that we're right for you and you're right for us before we decide if the next step is appropriate. Well, that's a great place for people to be going into, right?

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: But that's only possible if you're authentic. Yeah. People make sales so much harder than it needs to because they're looking at everything wrong. If you just look at it right everything gets easier. The whole process gets easier and you never feel slimy, you know? Because I know sometimes sales, consultants and stuff like that will tell people to do things and they're like 'I don't know...' And they feel slimy about it. Well, if you feel slimy about it that's probably because the way you're looking at everything is wrong. And so what you're doing is wrong and then you don't get the results that you want.

Those are like just interesting lessons you learn along the way as you work in this industry of marketing and sales. There's a lot of people that, you know, kind of have no [00:46:00] problem cutting corners, stretching the truth.

Ross Walker: Yep.

Ryan Chapman: But it's better not to. Okay, well, so we've covered quite a bit of ground. Is there anything that's kind of sticking out to you that you're like 'Ryan, I'd be really sad if we close this conversation without talking about this point?'

Ross Walker: Oh, man, that's quite the setup. No, I think we've covered some good foundation stuff. I mean, any one of these we could go way deep on but in this context I'll just say- I mean every time I talk to you the conversations come back around because we both really love The Messaging Connection and say 'hey, how can we turn this... We can make life so much easier if we connect with people all the way through marketing and sales.' So, no, I'll just repeat and put my stamp on that.

Ryan Chapman: That's great. I agree a hundred percent that it seems so simple that it can't be that powerful.

Ross Walker: Right. That's why everyone overlooks it.

Ryan Chapman: And usually it's like [00:47:00] 'well, that's too simple. I need a 40 part campaign.'

Ross Walker: Yep.

Ryan Chapman: Because it's not possible that something this simple could actually create the results. I just- from the work that you did with Frank, and I really- when I saw how you introducing that concept of 'hey, let's just ask the question to people who should have bought.' When I saw how powerful the result was for somebody like Frank, who's arguably one of the better sales persons out there, if he can't get them to buy without asking them a question, then what chance do the rest of us have who are not? Do you know what I mean?

Ross Walker: Totally! Yeah, I do.

Ryan Chapman: What possible chance do we have? If he can't do it do we think we're going to outsell Frank Kern? I don't think so. So if that's the case then why not use a simple mechanism? You know, I want to close with this because I know we're hitting pretty close to the hour mark.

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: I would like [00:48:00] to hear your thoughts on setting the hook. That's what I call the post-registration text message. I know I just had this conversation with an earlier guest but I'm really interested. Have you done any work on setting the hook post-registration? Like immediately after the registration. Because what I see is frequently people will get the reminder text message. They got that no problem. A few people have understood the concept that you pioneered of asking the question post-webinar. Because I don't think I ever recommended that to anybody. I had my three million dollar mistake, which was like pick up the phone and just call people who should have bought.

Ross Walker: Right.

Ryan Chapman: You took it to a new level by introducing- taking the conversation-starter concept and applying it to should-have-boughts which I was like, 'oh, that's so obvious. How come I didn't see that?' But those are the two that most people would get if they're pretty sharp. But I feel like I've seen rarely people get the set-the-hook concept of someone just [00:49:00] registered, they're at the peak point of interest. How do you set the hook? How do you make sure that they go 'hey, this is important to me.'You don't have to remind me. I'm going to set alarms. I'm going to set multiple alarms. I'm not going to miss this webinar or this training.'

Ross Walker: Right, so it takes a little bit in wordsmithing but after that- 'hey, glad to see you got it.' You know, 'here's a reminder, date and time,' whatever that may be. It heavily revolves around what kind of brand you have. But the basic thing you want to do is remind them kind of who this is for. Say 'hey'- I'll just use ice cream because that's easy. 'Hey, appreciate you registering for my How to Make Ice Cream webinar. We're going to cover three big things. Number one: the myth about homemade ice cream. Number two: do you really have to have that much sugar? Number three: how can you make Grandma happy with ice cream? I know those will be covered. But I really want to make sure we cover everything. So what's the one big thing you want to know from me about this topic?' You know and you [00:50:00] gotta shorten it because we've got to fit it in a message.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, but that's the concept.

Ross Walker: That's the concept. If you ask them a question 'well, what do you want to make sure-' and you don't promise to answer by texts. You have to put some sort of 'I want to make sure my content, when you show up, we'll cover this.' And needs to make- I want to make sure that-

Ryan Chapman: -Is something you've done?

Ross Walker: What's that?

Ryan Chapman: Is that something you've done?

Ross Walker: Yeah. Yep. I did a webinar on, actually tags. Out of all the boring subjects- tags. You know, how to use tags well in Infusionsoft. And after that, I can't remember it word for word. I could probably go find it. But basically 'hey, what's the one thing you want to make sure for certain that I answer on this webinar?' And I got some really good input. And then you have to reply live. It's not just the... Just got that. It's like, okay good. And sometimes a question, sometimes I just say 'perfect! I actually know exactly what slide so don't skip it. There's going to [00:51:00] be a slide that's just for you.' And then a few of them actually gave me good feedback. I'm like 'dude, I didn't even have that covered. Thanks! I'll add it in.'

Ryan Chapman: That's exactly what- we're just like probably siamese twins on that, in terms of our thoughts on that. But then the question I have for you is how did that impact results of the webinar? Well, like the objective of the webinar?

Ross Walker: On that one it's hard to say because I did that one right from the start. I used that message right from the get-go. But during the webinar-

Ryan Chapman: Well, you probably did see some correlation- did the people that asked questions, were they more likely to have shown up than those that didn't?

Ross Walker: Oh, yeah, the people that texted they were all there. For sure. It also changed me a little bit because they... On that one, usually there would be smaller attendance, like 10 to 12 people. Not huge. I'd only done it a few times. But I would have the list and I could make notes that's on a paper here on the desk. I'd say 'hey, Mark, when we were texting earlier you asked me about categories. This is the slide I was [00:52:00] thinking of so when I'm done, if I didn't answer it, make sure you comment.'

Ryan Chapman: That's super brilliant, too. And I want to call that out because your ability to reference that you were the one texting with people solidifies the power of the relationship even deeper. And I don't think people appreciate that. They go 'oh, that's just small numbers. Ross is only talking to a few people.' You don't need very many people, when the value you're bringing is high, in order to have a phenomenal business.

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: What you need is depth of relationship. And when people know that you care enough to ask and then care enough to respond and then carry them further to actually address something that they brought up, that goes a long way to establishing people's confidence in your ability to solve the problem. In fact, I would venture to guess that just because you asked the question people were confident you could answer it.

Ross Walker: Yeah! Yeah, I would totally agree with that. If I'm brave enough- if you or me or whoever is brave enough to open up and say [00:53:00] 'hey, what is it you want to hear?' That adds to your credibility of being open to say 'bring it on. What have you got?' Not that it's ego but I want to make sure I've solved your problem.

Ryan Chapman: One of the concerns people bring up frequently though is like 'oh, gosh. I don't think I want to be talking to that many people.'

Ross Walker: Good! Send them my way. I'll sell them. Heaven sakes! If you have so many that you can't do then you hire a salesperson. But, yeah... For the most part-

Ryan Chapman: If you had that question, I didn't ask it so that Russ would laugh at you and ridicule you. What you got out of that though is that it's so obvious to Ross, after working with all the wonderful people he's worked with and had the success he's had, it's so obvious that that is not a problem. If you have a ton of people responding... It- if they were, let's say they were all losers and none of them wanted to buy, okay?

Ross Walker: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: I just went harsh on them. But if that were the case that just tells you that you need to modify who you're asking the [00:54:00] question to, right?

Ross Walker: And then it's still good feedback. Like 'great, we're fishing in the wrong fishing hole.'

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, wrong hole. That's not a problem. You don't have to keep doing it just because you're getting in terrible results because Ryan said 'yeah, you should ask questions.' That's one way of setting the hook is asking the question, engaging the person. I was working with somebody who is doing like- they would have like 2,000 people on the webinar like every other day or something.

Ross Walker: Wow!

Ryan Chapman: You know, it was just a huge market. I would not tell them to ask a question in that scenario because there's too many people and there's not enough filtering that's been done at that level. If you're getting 2,000 people, chances are you've got quite a few people that aren't really a match in that group. So yeah, that's not to, you know, engage with them that way.

There's other things that you can do. So maybe you can mention any things that you've done. But one way is, we mentioned on the last or a couple of podcasts ago, is that you can just give them a workbook and tell them 'hey, there's an assignment I need you to do before you start.' [00:55:00] That enrolls people in thinking about the content of the webinar in advance. Not everybody will engage with it. But those that do will be much higher in the show up rate than those don't. So if there's anything like that that you've done besides asking the question to set the hook?

Ross Walker: That I've done for myself? No. But the example you just gave- if you've got 2,000 people and yeah, you probably don't want to start that many conversations with all of them, then just move to your next conversion point. Like what we did with Frank of ok, they showed up but they didn't convert. Or you can even go in between there, between the reminder and the show up, and just say 'hey, tomorrow I'm going to give you a short video as a precursor to the webinar. Make sure you check this out.' And then you can tag just the ones who actually did click through 'watch my little two minute video about the webinar' and those ones I could ask the question to.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, what you just did there, Ross, was so important. For you it's second nature, right? You don't even have to [00:56:00] think about the fact that you're doing it. You just know instinctively to do it. Now, a lot of people don't and that's why I'm calling this out one more time. We'll kind of close on this.

That is: what Ross did there was he identified filtering points. So he is looking at interaction with his marketing to identify who is the most active and anxious person in the group that would most likely- that's a sign that they're really set on resolving this problem or attaining this dream. When, Ross, I imagine every time you're doing something you're just inherently thinking 'okay, so I'm going to set something there that I can be able to track, I'm going to set something here that I'm going to be able to track.' And I'm not just tracking it so I have information. I'm tracking it because if they do that then I know 'okay, that's someone I want to talk to differently.'

Ross Walker: Yep.

Ryan Chapman: So, that's- 'okay. I can't engage with 2,000 people. I don't want to engage with 2,000 people. It's just not going to be worth my time or effort or money but, however, if I can add this here that will kind of call out those people who are most interested those are people I [00:57:00] want to definitely spend the money with because they're the ones that are going to show me that they're ready to take that next action.'

So if I have 5,000 people, I might just send out an email with a link to the video and then off the link of the video now, I trigger my text message. So there's- that's the thinking that you want to be able to acquire. Is thinking in that way of 'how do I let people raise their hand or show me a sign that hey, I'm really interested.' In a sort of maybe like the auction paddle right? When they click on that link it's like lifting an auction paddle to say 'wait! I'm interested. Put me down on the list.' And that's a way of thinking that has to be developed. But like, Ross, you don't even think about that do you? You just do it.

Ross Walker: Just kind of happens. And not that I'm gifted. It's just a lot of failures in the past lead me to those things. So, yeah. Just makes it- and you don't have to stop the funnel. People think of all these steps and they're like 'well, what if they don't do this? I'll stop the funnel.' I'm like 'don't stop the funnel. Just give them time.' I love the auction paddle, actually. Give them a few chances to raise that paddle. Let them come all the way [00:58:00] down. But now you've got that one percent that if you wanted to make some phone calls or some very personal texts or a personal video, you know exactly who to do it to.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, and I think that's the real key there is knowing how do you give people this ability to just identify themselves and kind of filter through? And then say okay, maybe you start with real high up on the paddle raising pyramid, right? They'll raise their pyramid err their paddle five times. Okay, we're going to start with those. You know, we're able to manage that. We've got time to spare. Let's go down to the three. Hey, that's actually getting us good results. Okay now, let's go down to two. Oh, fantastic! This is still getting good results. So now let's go to one. Nope. That was a total mistake. Go back up to two.

You know, that's kind of how you progress through these things because you have limited resources. So use the limited resources intelligently.. Cover LeBron James. Don't cover that other guy that we don't even know his name.

Ross Walker: There you go!

Ryan Chapman: Cover LeBron James. Okay, now that [00:59:00] we've got LeBron James under control, now let's look at the next guy that's making any baskets. Okay, now we're covering those two guys. Does anybody else make it in? No, nobody else is making baskets. Okay, we're fine, we'll keep it there. But you know, that's the way you want to be approaching these things when it comes to the business. You know, if you create a problem where you've got too much to do that's great. Pick the most profitable stuff and start there and work your way down.

You know, Ross, this has been really great. I really appreciate it!

Ross Walker: Oh, I'm having a blast. Thank you, Ryan!

Ryan Chapman: You know, people that want to learn more about Ross they can do a couple things. One is they could go to and go to our certified partners page. You'll see Ross in his bearded glory. Looking like Steve Jobs with that black background. Or you could just go straight to Is that right?

Ross Walker: Yep, you can go to or I finally own Finally got that domain.

Ryan Chapman: That's spelled out, right?

Ross Walker: Correct.

Ryan Chapman: T, H, R, E, E, S, T, E, P, Okay, cool! [01:00:00] Fantastic. So hey, thanks so much from us. I understand that you're actually working on a new market. So we'll have you back to talk about some of the work you're doing there as you get some results to report back.

Ross Walker: You bet. We'll keep it under wraps and when I unveil that one I'd love to do it here.

Ryan Chapman: Cool! Thanks so much.

Ross Walker: Thanks, Ryan!